Neem Oil

[Phil Hocking]

I am attempting to treat my red spider mite victims with neem oil. As it tends to go a bit viscous at lower temperatures and clogs the mister mechanism I add hot water. Should I also add some detergent and if so how much? I am wondering if the detergent might counteract the effect of the oil but might it also aid the formation of an emulsion?

Somerset Phil

[Tina]

Hi Phil
I only recently purchased some of this from Doreen but on my bottle it does say to add detergent to the mix.
Can't tell you how much as it's raining heavily & I'm housebound, will get back to you later if no one else knows the dose & I wander out to G/H.

[DaveW]

Hi Phil,

Looking on the web I found these:-

http://www.listmyfive.com/5a97d1ba/The- ... ato-Plants

http://www.ublcorp.com/files/Biological ... icides.pdf

http://www.rollitup.org/general-marijua ... thout.html

http://www.neemoilinsecticide.info/prep ... -home/list

DaveW

[mostly]

I have been using neem this year and none of my plants have been the worse for it.
My rough mix is 1L warm water, 1-1.5 tsp castile liquid soap, shaken well, then I add 1 tsp of neem and shake further. And keep shaking between sprays. Don't use the last 100ml or so as it starts to gunk up some. This is used as a preventative mostly. If treating an outbreak, up the concentrations some, perhaps 2 tsp of neem per 1L of water, with extra soap to aid mixing. Apply more frequently over a period of 2-3 weeks until their cycle is broken and they are under control.

[Jim_Mercer]

Are you sure you want to use this? - two quotes below from http://www.pesticides.gov.uk

Regulatory Update 26/2010
Products Containing Azadirachtin (also known as Neem Oil)

This Regulatory Update explains that it is unlawful to place on the market in the UK plant protection products that contain azadirachtin, the active ingredient of neem oil.

Issued: 16 November 2010

Products Containing Neem Oil

Background
We have been made aware that a number of products containing ‘Neem Oil’ are being imported into the UK and are being marketed as insect repellents. Insect repellents are plant protection products, and as such come under our legislation. Neem oil also contains the active ingredient ‘azadirachtin’, an active substance listed under Directive 91/414/EEC. Products acting as pesticides are regulated under the Control of Pesticide Regulations 1986 (COPR) as amended by the Control of Pesticides (amendment) Regulation 1997, or the Plant Protection Products Regulations 2003 (PPPR) in England and Wales. Regulation 4 of COPR states that pesticides cannot be advertised, sold, supplied, stored or used unless an approval to do so has been granted by the Minister. To advertise, sell, supply, store or use a pesticidal product without an approval is a prosecutable offence. Equivalent requirements are set out in regulation 3 of PPPR.

Until approval is granted it is an offence to sell, supply, advertise, store or use such products.

[Phil Hocking]

This Wikipedia article seems to indicate that it is fairly benign stuff. The legislation that makes such things illegal is often based on the premise that if it isn't designed (and licenced at great expense) for use as an insecticide it should be an offence to use it. Hence it is technically illegal for us to paint meths on mealy bugs and even to make up a spray containing crushed garlic. Something to watch is the fact that it biodegrades in 100 hours when in contact with water, so it would be best to make up a fresh emulsion each time. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to do so of course. What is the best legal way to deal with these blighters? I have heard talk of a certain Provado aerosol but I have never found it on sale round here and nothing else mentions red spider mite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadirachtin

Somerset Phil

[mostly]

The patent issue might have something to do with all this too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azadiracht ... ontroversy

In 1995, the European Patent Office (EPO) granted a patent on an anti-fungal product, derived from neem, to the US Department of Agriculture and multinational W. R. Grace and Company.[5] The Indian government challenged the patent when it was granted, claiming that the process for which the patent had been granted had actually been in use in India for over 2,000 years. In 2000, the EPO ruled in India's favour but the US multinational mounted an appeal claiming that prior art about the product had never been published in a scientific journal. On 8 March 2005, that appeal was lost and the EPO revoked the Neem patent rights keeping the tree free of these patent restrictions.[5]

Also there doesn't appear to be any regulations to do with selling neem oil for skin care, but we aren't allowed to put it on our plants?

[Jim_Mercer]

Phil

Bayer Garden used to make "All-in-One Bug & Disease Killer" which listed Red Spider Mite in its kills list, but they no longer list this on their site but they do list two ready to use organic sprays as well as the provado aerosol for use on red spider mite

[Chris43]

Glad to see from the patent outcome that common sense does seem to break out from time to time!

I have used Neem oil, and use 5ml ( 1 tsp) to 1 litre of water, with 1 tsp of detergent (I just use washing up liquid. It seems to emulsify OK, but do shake it well during spraying. So far so good - had a problem with red spider on some Escobarias and Rebutias, but this seems to have kept the critters at bay.

As long as I can get the oil, I will continue to use it.

[DaveW]

As Phil says, I believe it is a case of what is not licenced as a plant insecticide is technically illegal to use as one.

I think it is still legal in the UK, as Mostly says, to use Neem Oil in a shampoo for head lice, so if it's safe for that it should not harm humans if used for cacti.

Incidentally, it is technically illegal to spray soap suds onto your runner beans to get rid of aphids since it is not on the approved list, though nobody will ever get prosecuted for doing so, or any human ever be harmed. In fact probably there is less chance of humans being harmed from soap suds on their beans than from any of the chemicals on the approved insecticides list.

Whilst Neem Oil nay be OK for exotics and flowers that are not eaten, provided you wash your hands after handling them before eating, maybe it may not be ideal for spraying on vegetables where you may ingest them when eating the crop?

DaveW