Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

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DaveW
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by DaveW »

How easy does the EU make it to import them though? What import licences do you need here and how difficult and costly are they to get?

CITES requires paperwork from both the exporting and importing country, The proposed recipient country can also decide it's not desireable for that species to be in trade, even if it is being imported quite freely into other countries like the USA.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/cites-imports-and-exports

Probably for collectors it would be Appendix 1 species that they would most like a licence to obtain, either as plants or seeds, but CITES says:-

"Appendix I includes species threatened with extinction. Trade in specimens of these species is permitted only in exceptional circumstances.

"Appendix-I specimens

1.An import permit issued by the Management Authority of the State of import is required. This may be issued only if the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes and if the import will be for purposes that are not detrimental to the survival of the species. In the case of a live animal or plant, the Scientific Authority must be satisfied that the proposed recipient is suitably equipped to house and care for it."


https://cites.org/eng/disc/how.php

At the moment the designation "threatened with extinction" is usually not based on science, but personal opinions by unelected persons briefly visiting habitat and only finding limited plants, even though they may exist in their thousand on another hill they did not visit. Also it does not take into account the desireability of export of plants that will simply be destroyed by roads, agriculture or mining as their habitat will disappear anyway.

As to the legality of second generation material from originally habitat collected plants or seed within the EU, it would seem once propagated their progeny can then be legally sold? This would seem to imply that all those ELK seed raised or clonally propagated plants are now perfectly legal?

"Artificially propagated plants

There is a general exemption for all Annex A artificially propagated plants. An EC Certificate is not required to use them commercially once within the EU.


https://www.npws.ie/legislation/cites/e ... rtificates
FaeLLe
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by FaeLLe »

My understanding is the derogation clause of the EC import laws apply for this.
Quoting http://ec.europa.eu/environment/cites/p ... de2_en.pdf

3.6.1 What procedures apply to import and (re‐)export of captive‐bred
animals/artificially‐propagated plants?

Because trade in animals that were born and bred in captivity and plants that were artificially
propagated does not have the same potential impact on wild populations of fauna and flora, CITES
and the EU Wildlife Trade Regulations include provisions that are less strict for trade in these
specimens
.  

Specimens of Annex A‐listed animal or plant species are treated as specimens of Annex B‐listed
species if they were bred in captivity or artificially propagated, in accordance with Chapter XIII of  
Regulation (EC) No 865/2006172. In such cases, there are no restrictions on the purpose of the
import or (re‐)export of captive‐bred or artificially‐propagated specimens. This means that a
specimen produced by a non‐commercial captive‐breeding/artificial propagation operation can be
imported or (re‐)exported for commercial purposes, and vice‐versa, i.e. produced by a commercial
operation and imported/(re‐)exported for non‐commercial purposes
. Furthermore, whereas import
permits for specimens of Annex A‐listed animal or plant species generally only authorise the
specimen to be held at a specified address, this restriction does not apply to captive‐
bred/artificially‐propagated specimens.

Import restrictions established under Article 4(6) of Regulation (EC) No 338/97 do normally not
apply to captive‐bred or artificially‐propagated specimens173 (see Section 3.3.9.4).
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by FaeLLe »

It seems also that CITES permits are not required for "gifts".

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... es-gn2.pdf

14. Gifts and donations
You do not need a certificate if you want to give your specimens away, or use or display
them for non-commercial purposes.
However, if the transaction involves some type of
exchange or other benefit in kind, including some charitable donations (see below), we treat
this as a commercial transaction so you will need a certificate.
The person receiving the gift will also need a certificate to use the specimen for commercial
purposes if he or she plans to use it for commercial gain. Other EU countries may also not
be prepared to allow a specimen to be sold that has previously been given away, particularly
if there is not enough information about how it was received in the first place.
Anyone who receives a specimen as a gift should ask the person who gave it to them for
details of:
 the origin of the specimen,
 acquisition details,
 references to any previous certificates/permits or other documentation including
non-CITES paperwork to demonstrate legal origin and previous ownership.
 their contact details.
We may need to check this information if the new owner applies for a certificate.
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ChrisR
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by ChrisR »

There's a lot of detail of regulations here but who exactly polices all this stuff?
Chris Rodgerson- Sheffield UK BCSS 27098

See www.conophytum.com for ca.4000 photos and growing info on Conophytum, Crassula & Adromischus.
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by IanW »

In the UK? HMRC, but given that this isn't a priority they've defacto decriminalised smuggling of plants anyway and don't enforce the law because they don't view it to be worthwhile, at least that's my experience when I've contacted them.

I don't know why Dave is wittering on about paper work in the EU vs. the USA other than to give himself an excuse for his tired old nonsensical EU rants, because the paper work required is identical - phytosanitary certificates for the import of more plants than your personal allowance allows. I think the only difference beyond that is that the US has a personal allowance of about 12, whereas the UK chooses to drop that down to 5 I believe.

Most of the regulations about paperwork required are aimed at trade, this is always going to be lower for Mexico/USA trade because of NAFTA, just as UK/Rest of Europe trade in plants has zero paper work, whereas UK/USA trade requires drastically more paperwork - that is, it's got nothing to do with the EU requiring extra paperwork per-se, it's entirely about what trade agreements are in place, and the EU and USA/Mexico don't have one to cut this down, but that's not really relevant to most of us individuals who want to import for personal (i.e. non-trade) use.

I've not looked but with the new EU/Canada free trade agreement it's possible that what few Canadian species there are will now actually be incredibly easy to import, at least, until we leave the EU, then it'll be harder for us in the UK again unless/until we can form a similar agreement in a decades time or however long it will take. Though most those species are commonly available anyway, however these species are all UK outdoor hardy which is nice.
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by ChrisR »

My only experiences with this stuff (and I think I mentioned it before) were a DEFRA inspector visiting to inspect plants for export who hadn't a clue what he was looking at and presenting a phyto to Customs at Heathrow who just shrugged his shoulders and took the sheet of paper - wasn't interested to look at the plants.

When we hear about someone being arrested or fined, or their collections being confiscated due to lack of paperwork.......then I can take all this hot air seriously. Otherwise, what's the point? If no ones enforces the laws where's the incentive to worry about them?
Chris Rodgerson- Sheffield UK BCSS 27098

See www.conophytum.com for ca.4000 photos and growing info on Conophytum, Crassula & Adromischus.
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DaveW
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by DaveW »

According to the UK Government website:-

"EU regulations require each member state to designate a management authority (MA) and at least one scientific authority to oversee matters concerning CITES.

Defra

The UK’s designated MA is the Defra Wildlife Division. It communicates with the CITES Secretariat, European Commission and others, and provides information to the public and trade to ensure compliance. The APHA issues permits and certificates under the terms of the EU regulations.

The APHA includes the Wildlife Licensing and Registration Service (WLRS), which is responsible for regulating the trade in endangered species. WLRS has over 70 wildlife inspectors who work countrywide undertaking compliance inspections and supporting law-enforcement agencies such as the police in wildlife crime investigations.

The National Wildlife Crime Unit (NWCU) is the UK’s police-led unit. It gathers intelligence on national wildlife crime and supports the police and UKBA. The NWCU coordinates UK and international agencies that deal with wildlife crime.

INTERPOL, the world association of police forces, is also involved with stopping illegal wildlife trade. It supports and runs the Environmental Crime Programme.

UKBA Prohibitions and Restrictions Border Policy

Prohibitions and Restrictions Border Policy is responsible for customs policy in respect of CITES controls.

The team works with frontier control staff and maintains and issues guidance to the regions, as well as representing UK customs nationally and at EU and international CITES meetings."


Of course what happens when the UK leaves the EU is open to question since we will then be then working with CITES regulations alone and no longer bound by EU regulations. I seem to recall there used to be a proviso in the CITES regulations that any of their regulations that conflicts with a member nations own law is rendered null and void. Seemingly by amending their own laws member governments can remove any CITES regulations they find objectionable? Therefore presumably when we leave the EU the public and other organisations will be able to lobby their MP's for changes to importation regulations.

I think, being a nation of animal lovers, the British public and MP's are more concerned about the cruelty in importing animals from the wild than regulations for importing plants, unless of course these are used for drugs or are a danger to our agricultural industries.

Before going on your usual pro CITES rants Ian you should ask the American collectors whether they have as much trouble importing and exporting plants as it is to get them in and out of the EU. The British bureaucracy is renowned for "gold plating" regulations and making them far more onerous than originally intended.

I sometimes wonder, as you are so fond of excessive CITES regulations, if you are really in favour of killing off our hobby rather than promoting it? We are a society devoted to botanical species, not one for growing hybrid roses, therefore it is essential to maintain it we are able to obtain original material initially to propagate from habitat. A friend of mine at a conference said to a then British representative to CITES when it was first introduced that the paperwork required would kill off our hobby. "Thats what we intend" he was told and was so disgusted he resigned from the organisation. CITES has already killed off our cactus nurseries being able to export or import since the cost and effort of getting the paperwork for cultivated plants makes the trade not worthwhile.

The only thing wrong with the idea in the link below is suing the government is suing the taxpayer, they should be able to sue the individual civil servant concerned. That would speed up paperwork no end. :twisted:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2892 ... rules.html
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
IanW
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by IanW »

DaveW wrote:Before going on your usual pro CITES rants Ian you should ask the American collectors whether they have as much trouble importing and exporting plants as it is to get them in and out of the EU. The British bureaucracy is renowned for "gold plating" regulations and making them far more onerous than originally intended.
Make up your mind Dave, who are you blaming now, the EU or the British? You regularly seem to conflate the two and blame the EU for problems the UK has caused itself. No wonder you've never been able to offer any insight on the subject if you don't know the difference. Either way though, you're wrong, as usual. Like I said, the required paperwork is the same for both the UK and US, I don't know why you insist on constantly parroting things that simply aren't true.

Let's just confirm this with evidence. Even though you ignore evidence anyway at least others that don't take joy in merely basking in ignorance might find it useful. UK plant import guidance; you just need to get a phytosanitary certificate:

https://www.gov.uk/bringing-food-animal ... -uk/plants

US plant import guidance, you just need to get a phytosanitary certificate (and a fulfil a bunch of other conditions):

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail ... t-products
DaveW wrote:CITES has already killed off our cactus nurseries being able to export or import since the cost and effort of getting the paperwork for cultivated plants makes the trade not worthwhile.
Except once again you're lying. CITES hasn't killed anything off, it explicitly allows for this type of thing, in fact, if anything it makes it easier, because having one standard global scheme for handling this type of cross border trade is far easier than each and every country having their own arbitrary sets of laws and paperwork requirements. It's already been shown recently here that one of your core complaints about CITES is completely false in that CITES specifically allows for and encourages member nations to propagate and sell newly found or rare species with the goal of reducing poaching demand. Given that this core argument of yours against CITES has long been a lie, why do you still have such a problem with it other than for the sake of persisting in being an argumentative contrarian with nothing better to do than to attack people who have put far more effort into conservation than you ever have, and ever will? What you seem to be arguing is that we should remove all regulations, and if habitat gets stripped to death then so be it. You asked me a question so I'll ask you one, are you really so selfish in believing that you should have the right to grow what you want that you want a system that would allow people to profit off devastation of habitat such that those species aren't available for others? If that's what you think our hobby is then maybe there's a reason it's dying - your old fashioned view of believing everything in the world is yours for the taking regardless of the consequences is dying. I do not believe the majority of members of the BCSS would agree that that's what it should be about though. I believe most think conservation of habitat is a good thing.

If you believe that CITES has caused some kind of collapse of nurseries in the UK then prove it, give us some evidence instead of telling lies and slandering and libeling people and organisations for things you have exactly zero evidence for. The reality is that whilst British nurseries have fallen, continental nurseries have thrived despite being bound by the same legislation. The fact is that countries with climates naturally more acceptable to plants like Cacti are always going to be able to produce plants more cost effectively than we in the UK ever could. No matter how hard you try you will never, ever produce the same quality and quantity of plants in the UK in a greenhouse with our dark winters for the same cost as you can in a climate that allows year round growing outside in the open. Your anti-CITES rants are boring at the best of the times, because we've all heard them a thousand times, but the fact that they're almost entirely incorrect and full of lies just makes it insulting that you persist in posting such drivel.
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by Bill »

If people cant be civil, you might find you cant post and also I will not tolerate any further posts apearong to suggest laws can be broken just because they appear not to be enforced

FaeLLe thanks for the 'evidence', I will see that it is considered in any discussion at the next Trustee meeting.

Bill
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Re: Proof that Mexico has been exporting cacti

Post by FaeLLe »

Hello folks quick update, the CITES has now made their Trade database available online - https://trade.cites.org/

Looks like there have been recorded instances of exports of Cactacea from Mexico to US and the EU.
Extract of report from 2013 to 2015 as below,

Year App. Taxon Class Order Family Genus Importer Exporter Origin Importer reported quantity Exporter reported quantity Term Unit Purpose Source
2013 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae US MX 1 live P I
2014 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae GB MX 200 seeds g S W
2014 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae US MX 1 live P I
2014 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae US MX 6 timber P I
2015 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae GB MX 1 dried plants S A
2015 II Cactaceae spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae GB MX 200 seeds g S A
2015 II Mammillaria spp. Caryophyllales Cactaceae Mammillaria IT MX 70 40 live T A
2015 II Aztekium hintonii Caryophyllales Cactaceae Aztekium IT MX 50 50 live T A
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