purebred euphorbia obesa

[RICHAUD]

20/30 seeds is the production of a single plant in a year
and for me it's the job of a botanical garden and there are some excellent ones in South Africa
They can get the collect permit and they propagate an endangered species in their natural environment

[Apicra]

Hi Richaud,

Under natural conditions with irregular rainfall, irregular pollinators and parasites, seed set on an individual plant will be much less than 20 seeds per year on average. You are thinking about plants in generous cultivation conditions.

Are you suggesting that it is the role of botanical gardens to propagate plants for the public to grow ? Would the public pay a higher price for ones with habitat data, when ones without location data are readily available ?

I would prefer the few remaining plants are left alone in situ to regenerate.

Best wishes,
Derek Tribble

[RICHAUD]

a plant in cultivation produce more than 50 seeds by year
And yes I think a botanical garden must propagate endangered species to decrease the collection of habitat plants and you can sale obesa with an higher price if there is a locality data

[Apicra]

I think these comments are the dreams of someone not in touch with the real situation!

Succulent Euphorbias are listed under CITES Appendix II, so international transport requires permits, often making it commercially impractical.

For many years, Kirstenbosch BG used to hold annual sales of surplus indigenous flora, with some propagated specially to boost numbers. These have now ceased this because enough local nurseries in the CT area are producing indigenous plants. The publicly-funded bot. garden does not want to compete with privately-funded businesses.

Back in the 1980's, a tray of E. obesa plants appeared at the Karoo BG at Worcester. When I expressed surprise that these had been dug up from the wild, the curator Bruce Bayer told me they had been confiscated from a local school teacher, who though these succulents grew everywhere and would sell well to fund some school project !!! The plants were still there many years later and may still be in cultivation at Worcester. They were not propagated as far as I know.

What I conclude from all this is that despite good intentions, people have a poor record of protecting plants in ex-situ cultivation over any meaningful length of time (decades, centuries, ...) I repeat that it is best to leave the plants in habitat alone (but monitor their hoped for regeneration).

Best wishes,
Derek Tribble

[pvdw]

a plant in cultivation produce more than 50 seeds by year
And yes I think a botanical garden must propagate endangered species to decrease the collection of habitat plants and you can sale obesa with an higher price if there is a locality data

Maybe in an European country this may work. This is Africa. Here people live by 1 rule. Eat or be eaten

No it is not that bad but the part of the population that still care for nature and the funds to run something like that is just a dream.

I for one will find it hard to resist the picking of a few seeds to "save" them as I know that if I can find an Obesa in nature so can and will the people poaching for the black market.

It is difficult to preserse someting and let it be if you know that the next time you walk this road that plant will not be there anymore. Sad but tru for my beloved country.

[ragamala]

Thanks, Derek and pvdw from making some interesting contributions to this. Richaud, thanks for raising the issue!

I value Derek's knowledge, and pvdw's honesty.

For me it seems clear, for a gorgeous species (pure or not) which flourishes in our collections there is no need to rob habitat. For many years I have grown plants because of their attraction, not because of their authentic parentage. The idea of plundering habitat to obtain a genuine article is anathema to me, as is the suggestion that as a mere collector and amateur grower I can contribute to a species' preservation.

I can appreciate pvdw's on-the-ground-now practical view. I can only say for me the moral issues would prevent me from habitat collection. The argument "If I don't do it someone elese will" has never ranked highly with me.

I suspect if I were in southern Africa now I would find my efforts more worthwhile combating major threats to habitat and environment in a wider sense. I see one of those as fracking, which has the ability (apart from continuing our decline into climate chaos) to pollute environments, and affect the fragile nature of water supply and quality in some of the world's most vulnerable places.

[RICHAUD]

Back in the 1980's, a tray of E. obesa plants appeared at the Karoo BG at Worcester. When I expressed surprise that these had been dug up from the wild, the curator Bruce Bayer told me they had been confiscated from a local school teacher, who though these succulents grew everywhere and would sell well to fund some school project !!! The plants were still there many years later and may still be in cultivation at Worcester. They were not propagated as far as I know.

So If the plants are already in the botanical garden no problem to produce seeds and plants
because the situation in South Africa (west coast and Karoo) becomes dramatic with several years without rain and the flora which suffers enormously and so we do not talk more about renewal but survival for the plants (it's friends who come back from South Afica who told me about this situation with even some villages that have no water)

[Apicra]

Hi Richaud,

1) Yes, parts of South Africa are experiencing exceptional drought, particularly northern Namaqualand. So all the more reason to leave the maximum amount of seed on rare plants for recovery in their natural habitat at this critical time. Over their evolutionary history, these species must have experienced such drought many times, yet survived. But what is new on this timescale is the recent plague of Homo sapiens interfering ...

2) Despite your optimism, clearly there have been problems preventing the botanical gardens at Worcester from setting seed artificially on E. obesa. Can you think what they may be?

Best wishes,
DT

[RICHAUD]

Hi Aprica
And you think seeds of obesa survive 3 years or more ?

for the plants of Worcester
if the obesa are in a greenhouse, the male and female plants must first have simultaneous flowering
after someone must with a brush put the pollen from the male plant on the female plant pistilla because in Worcester the flies of Graaf Reinet area are far away and have not followed
And finally watch the maturity of the fruits otherwise the seeds will jump to several meters
a piece of gauze placed on the capsules is quite effective

[Apicra]

Hi Richaud,

Why 3 years?

At Worcester, the plants were in a lath house with wire mesh sides and many Haworthias! Yes, it is not difficult to pollinate Euphorbias by hand. So obviously, the problems are elsewhere. Lack of space to grow seedlings, lack of local customers (since CITES effectively prevents export), lack of skilled staff to do the pollination. And also lack of desire, since there are other demands of their limited resources and other species that would be in greater need of ex-situ propagation.

From a correspondent this morning: "Cape Town is suffering 38 deg C temperatures with the worst drought in 100 years, serious water shortages and fires."

Best wishes,
Derek