Twins ...
Forum rules
For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation, exhibition & science of cacti & other succulents only.
Please respect all forum members opinions and if you can't make a civil reply, don't reply!
For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation, exhibition & science of cacti & other succulents only.
Please respect all forum members opinions and if you can't make a civil reply, don't reply!
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- https://www.behance.net/kuchnie-warszawa
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
Re: Twins ...
These two Sulcorebutias are a lot more similar, in appearance if not in size and age.
Cheshire, UK
- rodsmith
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 3194
- Joined: 17 Feb 2011
- Branch: STOKE-ON-TRENT
- Country: UK
- Location: Staffordshire, UK
Re: Twins ...
If I hadn't seen the flower I'd have ID'd the one on the left as Mammillaria bocasana - or hahniana, but my observation skills were never brilliant.
Rod Smith
Growing a mixed collection of cacti & other succulents; mainly smaller species with a current emphasis on lithops & conophytum.
Growing a mixed collection of cacti & other succulents; mainly smaller species with a current emphasis on lithops & conophytum.
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
Re: Twins ...
No pesky needles lurking in that fuzz.rodsmith wrote:If I hadn't seen the flower I'd have ID'd the one on the left as Mammillaria bocasana - or hahniana, but my observation skills were never brilliant.
Cheshire, UK
Re: Twins ...
Ian - you have the photo of M. perezdelarosae above and andersoniana is the other thread and they are obviously very closely related apart from the straight or hooked spines. But do you or our other contributors really believe that there is any connection between these and M. bombycina? I know that the spination is rather similar-looking but the flowers are a bit different and the growth rate and ultimate sizes of the plants are vastly different. And perhaps there are fruit differences too?
Also, your M. carmenae looks rather tall and solitary. Do you think that this is fairly genuine material in contrast to all of the freely-clustering Dutch seedlings with different spine colours that are probably hybrids involving M. lauii?
Also, your M. carmenae looks rather tall and solitary. Do you think that this is fairly genuine material in contrast to all of the freely-clustering Dutch seedlings with different spine colours that are probably hybrids involving M. lauii?
- DaveW
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 8167
- Joined: 08 Jul 2007
- Branch: NOTTINGHAM
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Branch President
- Location: Nottingham
Re: Twins ...
I would say Ian's picture is the "original British Mammillaria carmenae" Terry when it was first introduced, before all the Continental hybridisation started, though the question is whether natural hybrids exist where it overlaps with other species like M. lauii.
Ian and I had one of our usual "discussions" elsewhere on it in the link below. But not sure we resolved the problem, though the information by Chris further down the link below helped.
See:-
http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29791
If you refer to the link in habitat below flowers with some pink on them do occur, the question is really are the plants now being sold with deeper pink flowers typical of habitat material, or they clones produced in cultivation by selective crossing to produce deeper pink flowers, or simply hybrids with lauii?
The same applies to the brownish spined carmenae's from the Continent. As you can see from the habitat link below there are plants with some red in the spines, but are the deep brownish red ones we see in Garden Centres clones bred by repeated crossings to deepen the spine colour, or maybe even originally sports? It's hard to find any first hand information on the matter and I am no wiser as to what is the truth than I was in 2013, maybe Ian has now found the answer?
http://www.afm-mammillaria.de/Probearti ... 4_2011.pdf
Ian and I had one of our usual "discussions" elsewhere on it in the link below. But not sure we resolved the problem, though the information by Chris further down the link below helped.
See:-
http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29791
If you refer to the link in habitat below flowers with some pink on them do occur, the question is really are the plants now being sold with deeper pink flowers typical of habitat material, or they clones produced in cultivation by selective crossing to produce deeper pink flowers, or simply hybrids with lauii?
The same applies to the brownish spined carmenae's from the Continent. As you can see from the habitat link below there are plants with some red in the spines, but are the deep brownish red ones we see in Garden Centres clones bred by repeated crossings to deepen the spine colour, or maybe even originally sports? It's hard to find any first hand information on the matter and I am no wiser as to what is the truth than I was in 2013, maybe Ian has now found the answer?
http://www.afm-mammillaria.de/Probearti ... 4_2011.pdf
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
Re: Twins ...
In my experience, M. carmenae, as defined by me, is very slow to clump. This one is just producing its first offset at the base. Another example is producing a nice clump but only after I chopped its head off. Every plant I've ever seen with clumps of small heads, pink flowers, or soft spines in multiple series are certainly hybrids. Of course some people want to put them all in the same species anyway, in which case whether they are hybrids or not is a moot point.
Cheshire, UK
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
Re: Twins ...
The growth rate and ultimate sizes of ssp perezdelarosae and ssp andersoniana are vastly different, by about a factor of 10. Both would seem to be closely-related to M. bombycina from the appearance of their tubercles, fruit, and seed, but it isn't clear whether that means anything or not. I may try some cross-pollination, if nothing else to see if I can provoke some fruit on my one ssp perezdelarosae plant.Terry S. wrote:Ian - you have the photo of M. perezdelarosae above and andersoniana is the other thread and they are obviously very closely related apart from the straight or hooked spines. But do you or our other contributors really believe that there is any connection between these and M. bombycina? I know that the spination is rather similar-looking but the flowers are a bit different and the growth rate and ultimate sizes of the plants are vastly different. And perhaps there are fruit differences too?
Cheshire, UK
Re: Twins ...
Could the Mammillaria on the left be the one you chopped down? I did that to my M. hahniana and the top looks like it might be ok for now but the bottom is completely hollow out. Interesting looking but not the most pleasant smell.
- iann
- BCSS Member
- Posts: 14565
- Joined: 11 Jan 2007
- Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
- Country: UK
- Role within the BCSS: Member
Re: Twins ...
No, that M. carmenae is as god intended, a bit tall and skinny. I noticed today that one of the tiny offsets at the base has buds so that should look interesting.
This is the one that was chopped. It looks a little odd because not all the heads are at ground level, but it seems healthy enough. The top started to root but unfortunately died.
This is the one that was chopped. It looks a little odd because not all the heads are at ground level, but it seems healthy enough. The top started to root but unfortunately died.
Cheshire, UK