Twins ...

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
Forum rules
For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation, exhibition & science of cacti & other succulents only.

Please respect all forum members opinions and if you can't make a civil reply, don't reply!
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
https://www.behance.net/kuchnie-warszawa
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Twins ...

Post by iann »

... of a sort.
mammillarias-0514.jpg
Cheshire, UK
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Twins ...

Post by iann »

These two Sulcorebutias are a lot more similar, in appearance if not in size and age.
sulcorebutia-0514.jpg
Cheshire, UK
User avatar
rodsmith
BCSS Member
Posts: 3189
Joined: 17 Feb 2011
Branch: STOKE-ON-TRENT
Country: UK
Location: Staffordshire, UK

Re: Twins ...

Post by rodsmith »

If I hadn't seen the flower I'd have ID'd the one on the left as Mammillaria bocasana - or hahniana, but my observation skills were never brilliant. :wink:
Rod Smith

Growing a mixed collection of cacti & other succulents; mainly smaller species with a current emphasis on lithops & conophytum.
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Twins ...

Post by iann »

rodsmith wrote:If I hadn't seen the flower I'd have ID'd the one on the left as Mammillaria bocasana - or hahniana, but my observation skills were never brilliant. :wink:
No pesky needles lurking in that fuzz.
Cheshire, UK
Terry S.

Re: Twins ...

Post by Terry S. »

Ian - you have the photo of M. perezdelarosae above and andersoniana is the other thread and they are obviously very closely related apart from the straight or hooked spines. But do you or our other contributors really believe that there is any connection between these and M. bombycina? I know that the spination is rather similar-looking but the flowers are a bit different and the growth rate and ultimate sizes of the plants are vastly different. And perhaps there are fruit differences too?

Also, your M. carmenae looks rather tall and solitary. Do you think that this is fairly genuine material in contrast to all of the freely-clustering Dutch seedlings with different spine colours that are probably hybrids involving M. lauii?
User avatar
DaveW
BCSS Member
Posts: 8154
Joined: 08 Jul 2007
Branch: NOTTINGHAM
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Branch President
Location: Nottingham

Re: Twins ...

Post by DaveW »

I would say Ian's picture is the "original British Mammillaria carmenae" Terry when it was first introduced, before all the Continental hybridisation started, though the question is whether natural hybrids exist where it overlaps with other species like M. lauii.

Ian and I had one of our usual "discussions" elsewhere on it in the link below. :lol: But not sure we resolved the problem, though the information by Chris further down the link below helped.

See:-

http://www.cactiguide.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29791

If you refer to the link in habitat below flowers with some pink on them do occur, the question is really are the plants now being sold with deeper pink flowers typical of habitat material, or they clones produced in cultivation by selective crossing to produce deeper pink flowers, or simply hybrids with lauii?

The same applies to the brownish spined carmenae's from the Continent. As you can see from the habitat link below there are plants with some red in the spines, but are the deep brownish red ones we see in Garden Centres clones bred by repeated crossings to deepen the spine colour, or maybe even originally sports? It's hard to find any first hand information on the matter and I am no wiser as to what is the truth than I was in 2013, maybe Ian has now found the answer?

http://www.afm-mammillaria.de/Probearti ... 4_2011.pdf
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Twins ...

Post by iann »

In my experience, M. carmenae, as defined by me, is very slow to clump. This one is just producing its first offset at the base. Another example is producing a nice clump but only after I chopped its head off. Every plant I've ever seen with clumps of small heads, pink flowers, or soft spines in multiple series are certainly hybrids. Of course some people want to put them all in the same species anyway, in which case whether they are hybrids or not is a moot point.
Cheshire, UK
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Twins ...

Post by iann »

Terry S. wrote:Ian - you have the photo of M. perezdelarosae above and andersoniana is the other thread and they are obviously very closely related apart from the straight or hooked spines. But do you or our other contributors really believe that there is any connection between these and M. bombycina? I know that the spination is rather similar-looking but the flowers are a bit different and the growth rate and ultimate sizes of the plants are vastly different. And perhaps there are fruit differences too?
The growth rate and ultimate sizes of ssp perezdelarosae and ssp andersoniana are vastly different, by about a factor of 10. Both would seem to be closely-related to M. bombycina from the appearance of their tubercles, fruit, and seed, but it isn't clear whether that means anything or not. I may try some cross-pollination, if nothing else to see if I can provoke some fruit on my one ssp perezdelarosae plant.
Cheshire, UK
User avatar
Ivan
Registered Guest
Posts: 246
Joined: 16 Apr 2014
Branch: None
Country: Ontario, Canada

Re: Twins ...

Post by Ivan »

Could the Mammillaria on the left be the one you chopped down? I did that to my M. hahniana and the top looks like it might be ok for now but the bottom is completely hollow out. Interesting looking but not the most pleasant smell.
User avatar
iann
BCSS Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: MACCLESFIELD & EAST CHESHIRE
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Twins ...

Post by iann »

No, that M. carmenae is as god intended, a bit tall and skinny. I noticed today that one of the tiny offsets at the base has buds so that should look interesting.

This is the one that was chopped. It looks a little odd because not all the heads are at ground level, but it seems healthy enough. The top started to root but unfortunately died.
carmenae-0419.jpg
Cheshire, UK
Post Reply