CITES and cactus seeds: question  Solved

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Bill
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by Bill »

This is a plant forum and not a political forum any further brexit discusion, that is not directly related to plants or is based on wild speculation will result in an instant 7 day ban for all involved.

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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by Kees »

Aiko wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:10 pm
Kees wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 4:36 am I have been given 100+ seeds of Melocactus smithii by the owner of the land the plants grow on. All I would like to have is a few plants. I've sown 10 seeds, if they germinate well I will have many seeds left. I do not want to waste them and am thinking of selling them on ebay.
M. smithii is a CITES II listed plant. Is it allowed to sell the seeds internationally?
Why not sow them all? Chances are that you will have an adult plant out of 10 seeds are not that high. Maybe half will germinate, and of the five remaining maybe two or three seedlings will be lost in the first year or two. Then there are two remaining, of not unlikely you might lose one or both to overwatering or scorching or an unknown reason.

You could always sell off excess plants if you happen to have 50 seedlings later on. Small plants that might fit a matchbox or other small container are still easy to send via post in a bubble wrapped envelope.
This is a very good thought. Maybe I started off with the false hope that most of the seeds would germinate as Thomson "predicts" in "Melocactus: care and cultivation". The other thing is that Melocacti are very sensitive to disturbance of their root system. When dried out they tend not to reroot as easily as most cacti. That is my personal experience and that of 1 other person who tried to reroot a M smithii seedling. Thomson confirms this. I am only going to sell the remainig seeds as soon as I have 3 plants to keep for myself. I will give seeds to 2 experienced cactus breeders soon to increase my chances.

From Thomson page 9: "It has been shown by
research that much of the main body of the mature Melocactus comprises
only juvenile tissue with transparent epidermis and the adult tissue, lacking
stomata, is largely restricted to the central core of the cephalium. The juvenile
tissue of the Melocactus body is probably the reason why it is very difficult,
though not impossible, to re-establish plants that have lost most or all
of their roots." Funny observation methinks as juvenile tissues are often more flexible in changing their nature and creating different tissue types. But that is a different discussion.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by DaveW »

Nobody knows the Brexit details yet Ragamala and that includes EU and UK politicians. We are supposedly leaving the EU to get rid of their Bureaucracy, therefore there is no reason our Government cannot modify it's CITES Regulations to suit our horticultural trade or hobbies and British Societies should be putting pressure on them to do so.

It's a decade since I read the CITES Regs, but there used to be a clause that any CITES Regulation that conflicted with a members own law was rendered null and void. That means after Brexit the British Parliament is able to revise it's horticultural laws to suit it's own industry or citizens if it wants. We will be able to trade with the world free of EU Regulations.

Some nurseries and collectors on an American site tell me they can import plants into the USA with far less fuss from around the world than they can from the EU and say one place they would certainly never export cacti to is the EU since it's too pedantic or bureaucratic.

It is often forgotten that the British electorate effectively disenfranchised our Legislatures when the Referendum voted to Leave contrary to Parliaments wishes. It will be the General Election that decides our Brexit terms, not our Legislatures, since the voter has now taken back control and can vote down any form of Brexit they don't like at the election..

In any case, if we had stayed in the EU from what we hear the CITES regulations and bureaucracy regarding cacti would keep increasing. It depends what is meant by horticulture Ragamala, if it means non CITES plants, being in the EU made little difference since we still import a lot of food from the rest of the world. However CITES bureaucracy certainly killed off our cactus nurseries ability to export world wide, since documentation even for nursery propagated plants deliberately became far too onerous in order to kill it off.

I think you may find that plants will still be crossing into and out of the EU over the very porous Irish/UK border after Brexit. I am sure many holiday makers bring back plants in their luggage from abroad who do not have a clue as to what CITES is and most probably most go through.

As to being out of the EU, unlike many here I can remember the situation before we joined the Common Market, so really if you are not old enough to remember Britain before we joined the EU you do not know any different, therefore only have half the story. Food was much cheaper in Britain then and its cost rose quickly when we joined because the Common Agricultural Policy was designed to support inefficient French peasant farmers and stop British agriculture competing with them. We were almost self sufficient in food as I recall when we joined and we were forced to put a lot of our agricultural land into set-aside and import food. That's how much joining the EU benefitted our horticulture and agriculture.

A quote from the following link:-

"If we had never joined, we might still have the most efficient and prosperous agriculture in Europe, as we did before we had to submit to the cockeyed rules of a Common Agricultural Policy drawn up primarily to serve the interests of France"

If we had never joined we might still have the most successful fishing industry in Europe, as we did before we had to hand over our fishing waters, once the richest and most efficiently managed in the world, to a Common Fisheries Policy which has seen the destruction of our fishing fleet and produced an ecological disaster."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ed-EU.html

BAN me for sever days or permanently if you like then Bill since we are getting more like the EU in banning free speech. I am simply replying to Ragamala.
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by Bill »

This has nothing to do with free speech its off topic and an emotional topic that has no place in The Cactus & Succulent Plant Forum. I take no pleasure in suspending a long time and valued member of the forum, but so be it.

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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by nobby »

As a European I won't give any comment on the British decision BREXIT.

As a cactus entusiast and active member of Tephrocactus study group I think it is neccessary to give some comments about CITES and the future.

CITES is an international regulation that GB joined in 1980 - before the special EU regulations became active!

After BREXIT the international CITES regulations have to be fully respected by Great Britain - and I am sure this will be the case. The special EU regulations will be valid only for the remaining EU members.
This means: after BREXIT (March 2019) I cannot bring plants legally to GB without export and import papers!
CITES is not a matter of treaties between countries - it is an international (worldwide) regulation that was signed and ratified by nearly all countries of the world!

You may hope but it is better to face reality!
Make use of the time before BREXIT!
Best regards
Nobby
Terry S.

Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question  Solved

Post by Terry S. »

You couldn't resist Dave could you!

Kees - The Australian or new Zealand customs might intercept the seeds and check that they are on the permitted lists. So either the buyer or seller can check the lists (probably easier for the buyer). The problem with the permitted lists (apart from using out-of-date nomenclature) is that the species on them are normally species which are already being grown in the receiving countries. Therefore new and rare species are unlikely to be permitted. Another case of political illogicality. I would actually exclude Australia as a destination because of new regulations this year for packing method and covering letter that have to be carefully followed. For the USA, the buyer has to get a free licence from APHIS (no species restrictions) which he/she can then Email to you.

The problems for horticulture of leaving the EU are not just CITES. I think the list is as follows:

Will need CITES to bring listed plants into the UK

Will need Phytosanitary Certificates to bring any plants into the UK (although this has the possible advantage of keeping new pathogens such as Xylella out)

Plant breeders will have to get UK PBRs as well as EU PVRs to protect their new cultivars throughout Europe

Large nurseries will not have a large enough pool of staff

Small succulent and orchid nurseries who currently buy much of their stock from Dutch wholesale nurseries, will not be able to do so because of the excessive costs and labour of documentation

The one upside is that it will provide opportunities for those small UK succulent nurseries who do their own propagation.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by ragamala »

Thanks for that useful summary, Terry.

As a matter of academic interest, perhaps, what is the situation with countries currently in EFTA or EEA but not members of the EU, do you know? Are provisions you describe for plant trade between EU and a possible UK outside the EU currently applicable to trade between such countries as Switzerland/Norway etc and the EU? Or do "real" free trade rules apply? I am assuming that probably normal international Cites rules apply, and phytosanitary certificates are formally required for each-way trade, but there are particular exceptions for Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by Kees »

Thanks for all your answers. Sorry to have started a heated political debate. Hadn't realised that any topic can become Brexitized.
To cut a long story short: CITES does not restrict international trade of seeds of plants listed in Appendix II but individual countries or groups of contries may impose additional restrictions and or requirements. Best is to ask buyers not to bid before they checked with the local or national authorities whether the seeds can be imported into their country.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by KarlR »

ragamala wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:38 am Thanks for that useful summary, Terry.

As a matter of academic interest, perhaps, what is the situation with countries currently in EFTA or EEA but not members of the EU, do you know? Are provisions you describe for plant trade between EU and a possible UK outside the EU currently applicable to trade between such countries as Switzerland/Norway etc and the EU? Or do "real" free trade rules apply? I am assuming that probably normal international Cites rules apply, and phytosanitary certificates are formally required for each-way trade, but there are particular exceptions for Switzerland and Liechtenstein.
In theory I think Norway should fall under the same market as the EU, but in practice we are apart. Perhaps we are so in theory as well, I don't know. It's for certain that shipping to Norway from EU-countries can sometimes be difficult. Some of the larger nurseries and online shops do ship to Norway without problem, but some only ship within the EU. E.g. SuccSeed in Sweden do not ship plants or cites-species to Norway, but most of the big nurseries do (but at own risk) - some of these then require a certificate and some don't. Regulations aren't very clear 🙂

As far as CITES is concerned, I believe certificates are technically required from EU-countries. I usually don't bother with all that unless the seller requires it for export. Rather take my chances that customs don't check what I've ordered.
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Re: CITES and cactus seeds: question

Post by ragamala »

Bill wrote: Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:32 pm This has nothing to do with free speech its off topic and an emotional topic that has no place in The Cactus & Succulent Plant Forum. I take no pleasure in suspending a long time and valued member of the forum, but so be it.

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And in so doing you leave this post for all to see, but aim to prevent response, having removed other posts earlier but neither threatened nor activated suspension. One thing or the other. A ban and delete the post, or leave this member to continue his harangue, in which case I am sure there are others who are willing to cross swords with him.

OR move this post to Off Topic. Then we can all feel free to have our say. This is nothing to do with emotion, it is everything to do with reality. And those of us who do not have our opinions formed by the Express or Mail would perhaps like to express a view.
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