Cactus seed payment

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Ian Thwaites
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by Ian Thwaites »

ragamala wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:02 pm
Ian Thwaites wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:59 am
Terry S. wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 9:34 am Trying to run an old-fashioned ordering system and a digital one in parallel would be challenging to say the least and I wouldn't like to be the person managing them.
Terry,

I do agree with you and as I have said I will never disadvantage the generation without internet but the society will need to move on. I am thinking that perhaps we will open the orders at a date after Christmas and then allocate 30-40% to postal orders and 60% to the net. This way we would cater for both options and also those living in the back reaches of the UK who may have their journal and seed order delayed.
Ian

Terry has a very good point. To try and use a segregated system would be difficult and hard to justify. Quotas rarely work well in many fields. If the intention is to adjust the items on sale for internet purchasers depending on availability this raises two problems. One is internet purchasers may be denied seedds which are available but in the postal quota. Secondly, the lack of such a system for the postal quota creates an inequality, with postal orderers possibly ordering out-of-stock items (even if available through the internet quota). I just can't see this working well. Nor can I see that the first year's experience would lead to a perfect change - if internet availability is "sold out" and non-orderable, you have no idea who may have ordered the items if they had been available.

I think one system for all is the answer. If individual members have no internet access surely they can prevail upon friends and relatives to do the ordering for them? I know many folk who use free library access but don't have home internet.

Contrary to what one member who has contributed here thinks, the forum is the only place we should feel able to discuss openly the issues involved which affect us all. Without rancour.
I have always said that I will not disadvantage any member and to follow that through and based on your suggestion that we should only use one process the only option would be to continue to use the paper based system. My proposal whilst not perfect would be a move in the right direction and whilst initial estimates will never be accurate it would be a starting point and we can always dynamically adjust the ratio when we find out we have it wrong. I am sure that through an evolution process it wouldn't be long before everyone ordered their seed on line.

Also I am hoping that as we develop the web site we will be adding more and more content that will encourage most of our membership to enjoy the on-line experience.

Happy New Year all
Ian Thwaites
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ragamala
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by ragamala »

Ian Thwaites wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

I have always said that I will not disadvantage any member
I appreciate that, Ian. But to devise a new system that 100% satisfies nobody and is retrogressive is not the way forward. There is a choice to be made. Whether BCSS modernises, as other societies have, towards an internet-only system, or gives up offering seed seem the two viable options. I appreciate that David R has been trying to pass the responsibility on for ages. To resplace a seed purchaser is one thing. To introduce new complications into the seed distribution volunteers' activities would not be entirely helpful.

I appreciate you are in a cleft stick, trying to reconcile different approaches. But I have only expressed my concerns. Maybe other forum members will contribute their views.
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Ian Thwaites
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by Ian Thwaites »

ragamala wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:18 pm
Ian Thwaites wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 1:49 pm

I have always said that I will not disadvantage any member
I appreciate that, Ian. But to devise a new system that 100% satisfies nobody and is retrogressive is not the way forward. There is a choice to be made. Whether BCSS modernises, as other societies have, towards an internet-only system, or gives up offering seed seem the two viable options. I appreciate that David R has been trying to pass the responsibility on for ages. To resplace a seed purchaser is one thing. To introduce new complications into the seed distribution volunteers' activities would not be entirely helpful.

I appreciate you are in a cleft stick, trying to reconcile different approaches. But I have only expressed my concerns. Maybe other forum members will contribute their views.
I am pleased that you give me your views and I would never try and stop that. I want to modernise the society and I do believe the way forward is on-line but as I used to say when my lads were growing up "small steps". I believe that if we start on-line then we will slowly evolve in that direction and ultimately we may be able to move 100% that way. At the moment we only have email contact details for 60 - 70% of the members. I would like to get that up to 100% but this will take time. Additionally if we are able to offer seeds on-line then if we are able to source some short lived seeds then a mid year offering may be possible.

But we have to get there first!
Ian Thwaites
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by Jim_Mercer »

ragamala wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:02 pm I think one system for all is the answer
Why can't that be the post office rather than this new fangled clacks thing? :wink:


Main problem this year seemed to be that the paypal payment method was not clear - hence the original post in this thread. The seed form referred you to main bcss site which didn't seem to have any mention of the way to pay (and it was only supposed to be for overseas members).
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conolady
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by conolady »

Jim_Mercer wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 2:48 pm
ragamala wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 12:02 pm I think one system for all is the answer
Why can't that be the post office rather than this new fangled clacks thing? :wink:


Main problem this year seemed to be that the paypal payment method was not clear - hence the original post in this thread. The seed form referred you to main bcss site which didn't seem to have any mention of the way to pay (and it was only supposed to be for overseas members).
Yes, that is how this thread started: how to pay by PayPal wasn't clear. It was impossible to find! The next point, despite the 'new-fangled clacks crack' (why?) is valid. Even though I use the Internet and a computer a lot and Paypal for most things, I'm inclined to agree with this view: why not use just the postal service for the seed distribution? Surely the main thing is to keep the seed list going and if everything else is either too difficult or problematic, why not stick to paper? People with no cheque book could send either cash, money drafts, or cash. Yes, it's a drag, but if they want the seed...Compromise, surely? I know I've suggested it before, but if there were to be a date given by which all orders must be in, eg 4 or 5 weeks after the list is sent out, that would give time for everyone here or abroad to get their orders in, poor postal service or not, and then the distribution could be random, not first come, first served. Thus 'unfairness' would be a non-issue. It would also mean that there was no extra pressure on sending out the seed and no advantage to the smart-phone keenies. It's not an insult, by the way. I know exactly what Terry means by that: he had his website crashed by Far Easterners accessing his site 24/7, probably by means of a tech alert, awaiting a seed sale time and date. Make no mistake, these people are not about supporting the BCSS or MSG or anything else. They want the currently fashionable seed, ie conophytums at the moment.

But, back to the BCSS: if all else fails for some obscure reason, make the seed distribution UK only, paper only. I can't see the folk abroad furthering the causes of the grass roots, branch meetings etc, and if the seed list is the only reason for joining, it all rather speaks for itself. Being pragmatic is not being Luddite. I'm far from the latter, but if pragmatism is the only solution, I'm all for it. If a society doesn't want to be dragged kicking into an Internet age, then tiny steps is the only way forward. As Ian says, evolution is likely to follow naturally. Like it or not.
First it was orchids, then, since c.2001, cacti and succulents. I'm into South African plants, mainly conos, lithops and haworthias, with a few cacti, especially 'posh' mamms, turbs and other smalls. Now it’s stapeliads as well...
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by mary44 »

conolady wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:04 pm Yes, that is how this thread started: how to pay by PayPal wasn't clear. It was impossible to find! The next point, despite the 'new-fangled clacks crack' (why?) is valid. Even though I use the Internet and a computer a lot and Paypal for most things, I'm inclined to agree with this view: why not use just the postal service for the seed distribution? Surely the main thing is to keep the seed list going and if everything else is either too difficult or problematic, why not stick to paper? People with no cheque book could send either cash, money drafts, or cash. Yes, it's a drag, but if they want the seed...Compromise, surely? I know I've suggested it before, but if there were to be a date given by which all orders must be in, eg 4 or 5 weeks after the list is sent out, that would give time for everyone here or abroad to get their orders in, poor postal service or not, and then the distribution could be random, not first come, first served. Thus 'unfairness' would be a non-issue. It would also mean that there was no extra pressure on sending out the seed and no advantage to the smart-phone keenies. It's not an insult, by the way. I know exactly what Terry means by that: he had his website crashed by Far Easterners accessing his site 24/7, probably by means of a tech alert, awaiting a seed sale time and date. Make no mistake, these people are not about supporting the BCSS or MSG or anything else. They want the currently fashionable seed, ie conophytums at the moment.

But, back to the BCSS: if all else fails for some obscure reason, make the seed distribution UK only, paper only. I can't see the folk abroad furthering the causes of the grass roots, branch meetings etc, and if the seed list is the only reason for joining, it all rather speaks for itself. Being pragmatic is not being Luddite. I'm far from the latter, but if pragmatism is the only solution, I'm all for it. If a society doesn't want to be dragged kicking into an Internet age, then tiny steps is the only way forward. As Ian says, evolution is likely to follow naturally. Like it or not.
You make some excellent points :)

My apologies if this is long winded. I have been giving the issues we face as a society some thought. It seems the seed list could be seen as an incentive by new members, a first place to start on their cactus growing adventures so it feels vital we keep it going in some shape or form for the future. If the future is internet based then so be it. It needs to be an easy system that will work for all members... somehow.

I belong to numerous societies, the cyclamen society uses the same paper based seed list in journal system it has since it started back in the 80's and it still works because all orders are made in the summer as seed is harvested and before seed donors send in their seed, based on the seed that is likely to be available. And then the seed is packed by volunteers over the summer and sent out to the members during October. No one gets all the rarities if they are in short supply. It works because the seed is pretty much always the same seeds and cultivars every year and is donor based rather than purchasing seeds in. Payment is by cheque in the U.K. Not sure about overseas having never paid attention to that.

The AGS and Scottish Rock Garden Society have both moved in recent years to an online based system. Again they rely on donations and packers in a similar way to the cyclamen society. But their system goes live for orders and is packed by volunteers over the coming weeks and again not all rarities are given to members who request them though donors are given extra packets and priority over ordering. Each member is allowed a certain number of packets so alternative choices are needed. I don't know if their seed ordering system was designed especially for them or was a package they purchased to use and if something similar could be adapted to the needs of the BCSS? My knowledge of all things internet is pretty limited.

If we do end up with a system which is internet based, with paypal payments that goes live I can see we might have problems with crashes due to too many people ordering at once. This does depend on the contents of the seed list, if it is full of the mesemb rarities such as you find on the MSG list each year then yes, Conolady is right to worry about people joining just for the list, and all the associated problems that causes. I am not sure though that cacti seed is in such demand so we might be spared their interest.
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by Jim_Mercer »

mary44 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:55 pm I am not sure though that cacti seed is in such demand so we might be spared their interest.
The seed list also contains succulents with conophytum and lithops both having a number of different varieties on the list
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by conolady »

Jim_Mercer wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:32 pm
mary44 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:55 pm I am not sure though that cacti seed is in such demand so we might be spared their interest.
The seed list also contains succulents with conophytum and lithops both having a number of different varieties on the list
Exactly. That is why I think we should make sure seed orders aren't led by this current fad.

Edited to add: continued below. I don't know why it's in two posts! Sorry!
Last edited by conolady on Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
First it was orchids, then, since c.2001, cacti and succulents. I'm into South African plants, mainly conos, lithops and haworthias, with a few cacti, especially 'posh' mamms, turbs and other smalls. Now it’s stapeliads as well...
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by conolady »

conolady wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:36 pm
Jim_Mercer wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:32 pm
mary44 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:55 pm I am not sure though that cacti seed is in such demand so we might be spared their interest.
The seed list also contains succulents with conophytum and lithops both having a number of different varieties on the list
Exactly. That is why I think we should make sure seed ordering isn't dominated by this current fad.
I also feel that whatever system the volunteers themselves prefer should be the one we use. It's all very well 'being modern' etc, but if you shoot yourself in the foot you're crippled. If there is no seed list, I feel sure subscriptions will drop dramatically. Yes, we might lose some new, younger, members if it isn't easy online payment, but faithful, older members must be looked after first. I really feel that if someone doesn't want to join because it isn't techie ordering and won't make the effort to comply with the postal system, then they really aren't worth worrying about. If they can't be bothered, why should we cater for them?

Somebody mentioned that commercial ventures work on a first come, first served basis. Those that do, that's their prerogative, they're in business; the BCSS seed distribution is not. It's run by volunteers. But not all commercial suppliers work like that. Norbert, from atomic-plants.de, was at pains to insist that there was no hurry to order and that seed would be sent NOT on that basis but randomly. And his website didn't crash because of it, despite many thousands of orders.

We need to make choices: what matters and how to protect it. Or we'll lose the very thing we all want to keep.
First it was orchids, then, since c.2001, cacti and succulents. I'm into South African plants, mainly conos, lithops and haworthias, with a few cacti, especially 'posh' mamms, turbs and other smalls. Now it’s stapeliads as well...
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Re: Cactus seed payment

Post by MikeDom »

Jim_Mercer wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 5:32 pm
mary44 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:55 pm I am not sure though that cacti seed is in such demand so we might be spared their interest.
The seed list also contains succulents with conophytum and lithops both having a number of different varieties on the list
I think the reason for the list containing these mesembs in larger quantities this year is because there is no seed list for the MSG, which we understand and sympathise for the reasons why this is. I am sure I read somewhere that the MSG makes a loss on membership and makes up that loss partly through the seed list, but I can't find where I read it. I don't know if it is the same for BCSS finances.

The idea of restricting seed distribution to UK only has some credibility and there are some good ideas above on how to make it fair to all. I find the paper based system works for me; I don't get all the seed varieties I ask for, but does it really matter? I'd rather that than wait for the issue of a list online and have to furiously order as quickly as possible in the same way as we have to do if you want the choicer varieties at Mesa Gardens. Let the overseas buyers get their mesembs from Mesa Gardens if they want to buy them, the seed list should be regarded as a privilege for UK members. And that's not an example of xenophobia.
Mike

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Active grower of caudiciform succulents and mesembs. I don't really grow cacti (very often).
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