Top dressing for succulents

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
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Paul in Essex
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Paul in Essex »

Ditto, really. I don't have a background in chemistry (well, I did a bit at University but that was a long time ago) or ceramics but have been using Tesco Low Dust cat litter for years and ain't never seen it slimy. Used on its own, as an ameliorant, used as a top dressing. Slime-free.
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rodsmith
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by rodsmith »

I've used Tesco "best" cat litter (no longer available apparently) as a constituent of my plant mix for the past 8 years and it has never gone slimy.
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Growing a mixed collection of cacti & other succulents; mainly smaller species with a current emphasis on lithops & conophytum.
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Herts Mike »

Sorry el48tel, I don't understand what you mean about ions. Would be grateful if you could explain.
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KarlR
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by KarlR »

el48tel wrote: Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:22 pm Two points here
1. I had some plants from a plant sale which contained that which I am told was Seramis or similar and was told was similar to "cat litter". Washed the used compost to reclaim the grit / sand --- found I had a slimy stuff on the surface (same colour as the component we discuss) --- asked as a newbie at the local branch and was told in no uncertain terms of the origin. Similar tale from a bag of Westland Cactus compost bought last year when I was starting this hobby.
2. Without bragging or one-up-man-ship, I have a background in Chemistry and ceramics, and understand the nature and behaviour of clay based materials. Please tell me if I am incorrect in this statement, "Very few cacti and succulents grow in silt or kaolin". If I am incorrect I shall most definitely apologise for my error.
Your problem here is that you are talking about the wrong kind of cat litter. The right kind is known as moler, and is excavated in Denmark. In England, Tesco is (or was?) the main seller of the product. It's a natural clay product, sold as cat litter in the form of grit sized granules, red-pink in colour. It does not turn to mush.

As for you other point about ions, you are talking about cations (positively charged ions) and the cation exchange capacity (CEC) of the soil. You mention silt and kaolinite, but silt is too large a fraction in this regard. Kaolinite is a clay type and obviously important for CEC, as the clay% of the soil is the most important aspect here. For the cat litter we use (as explained above), it does not break down, so any effect on the soil's CEC would be down to the surface area of the moler granules and the effect would probably be negligible in terms of the soil as a whole.

Also, CEC is not why we use cat litter in the soil. We use it to improve drainage and help aerate the soil. I'm sure there are other benefits, but those would be the two main ones.

You can find cat litter made of kaolinite but you should stay well clear of it. It is completely unsuitable. In fact, if you buy cat litter and it turns to mush when wet, throw it away. Or use as intended if you have a cat.
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el48tel
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by el48tel »

OK -- all is clear. There's Cat Litter and there's Cat Litter. Cat Litter goes slimy when wet because it is only a soft-fired ceramic, whereas Cat Litter is a harder fired ceramic and so does not disintegrate when wet. Unfortunately you can't get Cat Litter anymore because supermarkets have stopped selling it, but you can get substitute Cat Litter from DIY and car spares stores as "dangerous spillage" kits.
I know Cat Litter like materials as "Light-Agg" which I think is made as SECA by Saint-Gobain for landscaping. Not cheap, but per tonne a lot cheaper than Cat Litter. It has many uses and is Environment friendly. I used to use it in areas where weed suppression was necessary together with aesthetics but where youngsters might turn it into missiles. It is very very lightweight.
Now to explain the comments about ions would take a long missive .... so in short. The ions are the soluble (dissolved) bits in the water as in your fertiliser feed. Like Sodium phosphate = two ions. Doesn't matter whether it's Cat Litter or Cat Litter --- it has ions of its own held in the clay (= a kaolin material) --- and it's quite happy to exchange these with those in the water which passes over it. So what comes out or from the Cat Litter or the Cat Litter will not necessarily be the same as what you put over the Cat Litter or the Cat Litter. (Silt is also clay based.)
According to the extent of the ceramic firing and the origin of the clay, Cat Litter or Cat Litter will absorb and release different amounts of water over time. (Water absorption because that is what Cat Litter is designed to do; and some of the ions are retained too because that's what makes cat urine smelly - nitrate and ammonia particularly)
I don't think from the pictures I've seen, that cacti and succulents grow in the wild in Cat Litter or Cat Litter. In another discussion elsewhere someone was asking how to stop a plant like an Opuntia from toppling. The answer I think was to ensure the pot had sufficient gravel at the bottom and this would not present a problem because it the wild, Opuntia would experience plenty of this in their growing medium.
I'm just puzzled as to the need for a synthetic material in which to grow cacti, but then I'm merely a newbie who knows nothing.
Endeavouring to grow Aylostera, Echinocereus, Echinopsis, Gymnocalycium, Matucana, Rebutia, and Sulcorebutia. Fallen out of love with Lithops and aggravated by Aeoniums.
Currently being wooed by Haworthia, attempting hybridisation, and enticed by Mesembs.
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KarlR
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by KarlR »

I don't get whether you're trying to be sarcastic or whether you're genuinely confused.

The cat litter everyone uses is called that because that's what it's been marketed as. But a more accurate term would be to call it moler. It is not synthetic, but it has been fired. It's fairly similar to the Japanese product Akadama.

As to needing the stuff? No you don't. As for the plants growing in this stuff in habitat? No, they don't. But have you ever seen a cactus growing in a traditional «cactus mix» in habitat? Most potting mixes used are a far cry from what the plants grow in in habitat.
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Paul in Essex
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Paul in Essex »

el48tel wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:33 pm I'm just puzzled as to the need for a synthetic material in which to grow cacti, but then I'm merely a newbie who knows nothing.
I would suggest it is a matter of accepting the advice and experience of people who have been using it successfully for a long time and not just coming out slugging because it doesn't fit with your preconceptions. Because, if you do that, and alienate people on here with your attitude, you mind find advice a little thin on the ground next time you ask and when you need it.
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Jim_Mercer »

el48tel wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:33 pm I'm just puzzled as to the need for a synthetic material in which to grow cacti,
It is the perpetual search for the perfect growing media for plants kept in captivity. Various additives to basic soils/composts have been suggested, in the past crushed bricks were advocated, more recently fired clays like Akadama, Seramis and the hard pink cat litter (only Sophisticat currently available) other alternatives are expanded rocks such as Perlite and Vermiculite and the more natural Pumice.

Getting back to the original question I currently use Jondo flint grit in either chick or hen sizes for both top dressing and adding to my soil mix - just like cat litter there are lots of poultry grits but many of them include sources of calcium such as oyster shells so are best avoided for most plants, the ones I use only contain flint.
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Tony R
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Tony R »

el48tel wrote: Thu Jan 24, 2019 2:33 pm I don't think from the pictures I've seen, that cacti and succulents grow in the wild in Cat Litter or Cat Litter.
They don't grow in greenhouses either in the wild, so are you suggesting we stop doing that as well? :wink:
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Stuart
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Re: Top dressing for succulents

Post by Stuart »

I think Paul would probably agree with that Tony.
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