New Turbinicarpus speices found!!!

[JoZoo]

No one, JoZoo. That's the reality of no-one valuing ex-situ conservation as highly as it should be, and the worst offenders are governments advised by professional botanists.

Thanks Chris, I guessed this would be the case although I sincerely hoped it wouldn't be. I guess this is where societies like these all over the world come into play in communicating best practice and encouraging responsible collection and distribution of plants and seeds.

[Rob]

I really don't see what the authors of this are hoping to achieve?
They make it clear that the taxonomic position of the population is unclear but still leap in and describe it at full species status! When it has clearly been known for some time as a slightly different population of plants considered at subspecies status.
It has been available on seed and plant lists occasionally, although each time I have ordered it I have been too slow off the mark and it has been sold out.
Publishing it as a 'species' cant be helpful, as it now comes higher in the consciousness of more collectors/growers, you can almost hear it now "There is a new Turb, I gotta have one" which in all probability will increase pressure on the habitat population, as is generally the case with 'new' plants, habitat collection could well increase in order to feed a likely increase in demand, and higher prices = greater profit for this activity. But I guess it makes more work for botanists - someone will have to publish an article somewhere to reduce it to synonymy or at very best ssp/var level.

I understand there is or will soon be a 'new' subspecies of T.alonsoi published, no doubt also for a 'totally disjunct' population a handful of Km's from the type and with some minor difference in spination or flower colour? If this carries on every population of every species will have its own name. Or maybe we could just name every individual specimen?

In terms of conservation, it would be nice if we could have more Yavia type projects? Where discoverers of 'new' plants could go to the conservation committees of the BCSS / CSSA / DKG and say "here's 50/100 seeds of 'x' get it propagated ready for the description to be published in two years time - after we have studied it more" We know there are growers who can use pereskiopsis etc to get many hundreds of plants from a few seeds in a relatively short time...

The discoverers of Aztekium valdezii, supressed it for four years, If they could have done something like this there could have been Thousands of plants ready to distribute when the news leaked out and the profiteering from habitat collected material could have been avoided. Of course, there are a number of legal hurdles to cross for these sort of projects but it is something I would like to see worked towards.

[Dot]

JoZoo, is it possible for members of the public to visit the Collections of Copiapoa Matucana and Turbinicarpus at Chester Zoo?
I think we met briefly at the Zone3 Rally last week, I hope you and your husband enjoyed the day,

Dot.

[JoZoo]

JoZoo, is it possible for members of the public to visit the Collections of Copiapoa Matucana and Turbinicarpus at Chester Zoo?

Hi Dot,
Yes members of the public are able to view the collection by appointment. If you send me a private message I can arrange this for you.
Jo

[DaveW]

"No one, JoZoo. That's the reality of no-one valuing ex-situ conservation as highly as it should be, and the worst offenders are governments advised by professional botanists.

Oh Dear, I'm getting to sound like DaveW!!"

Not just sounding like me Chris, but even Paul Klassen from his blog here. Paul Klassen's group followed us to Chile just a couple of weeks later:-

http://pkcactus.info/2015/11/04/

"As we headed back, we took the turning to Las Maderas (the wood) where indeed it was difficult to see the wood for the trees, this valley has one of the largest and densest populations of C. columna-alba that I know. Just before coming to Chile, someone at Exeter university published a paper stating how desperate the conservation status of the cacti in the world had become with many species nearing extinction and firmly pointing the finger of guilt at the cactus hobby and commercial collection of plants. Even if the hobby was able to triple its global membership and give every registered member three plants of C. columna-alba from this location, it would hardly make a dent. Perhaps I need to send her some pictures from this trip and illustrate damage done by road building, mining, agriculture (wine and goats) and natural events (floods) to enable her to adjust the balance of reality in her mind and teachings. Hers is the wrong message – doom and gloom – to express. There is much cause for optimism."

Inaccurate statements by supposed "professionals" or self appointed conservationists and misguided teaching to students by lecturers putting forward hearsay as facts help nobody if they are not based on the true situation in habitat. The recent floods in Chile probably took out more plants than plant collecting ever did over centuries, plus we saw whole hillsides containing Copiapoa's being demolished and crushed for road stone for extensive new road building.

What illegal collecting usually takes is merely a pin prick for most populations, though it could endanger a few in isolated cases. But the odd case of over collecting endangering a species should not be used to pretend this is the major threat to our plants. That is really their legal destruction by agriculture, road building and urban sprawl in the countries concerned.

In fact due to the spread of vineyards in Chile over cactus habitats it is you boozy wine drinkers that are doing more to support the killing off of cacti in habitat than illegal collectors!

[TheEconomist]

Correct me if I'm wrong but ... doesn't that simply mean that there are greater threats than illegal collectors, meaning that those people are still a problem ?

Cancer leads to more deaths than bone fractures, but that doesn't mean that bone fractures should be ignored at a hospital just because the individual is less likely to die as a result sort of thing.

I imagine illegal collecting from habitat, and the impact it has on a particular plant poluation, will differ from plant to plant. In some cases it may be negligable but in others it may be devastating, but then again that's just what logic would dictate to me and not tangible proof.

[DaveW]

Unfortunately Economist those who claim illegal collecting is the major threat to our plants seldom if ever go public to the popular press and roundly condemn foreign governments also for allowing agriculture, roads, and industry to wreck so many habitats. As most of those claiming collectors are the main threat are usually public sector employees one can only assume it is a case they dare not annoy their public sector masters by sticking their heads above the parapet as David Bellamy did and criticise foreign governments, therefore possibly loosing the UK a lucrative arms or export order and risking their jobs or promotion.

Certainly their silence is deafening on the real threats to habitat. As said before conservation matters really need to be in independent hands like the WWF, not those of employees in the public sector kowtowing to their employers and using illegal collecting as a smokescreen to cover up the real threats. I am still waiting for one to go public, going to the national press and roundly condemning a foreign government for its habitat destruction, but I fear "pigs will be flying" before that happens.

I have been waiting for years for one of these public sector "experts" on conservation to have the backbone to go to the national press and put their job at risk! They broke the mould when they made David Bellamy since that cost him his job. Therefore don't expect open criticism of foreign governments from any public sector employees who will always go for the safer targets like illegal collectors, even if they are not the real danger to our plants.

http://www.wildfilmhistory.org/person/3 ... llamy.html

[JoZoo]

But Dave if we are talking soley Turbinicarpus (which I have never seen the habitat myself only read in books) then it states that much of the habitat is unusable for anything else. The main threat that Turbinicarpus face in the publications I have read is illegal collection in many locations especially as the numbers are small and isolated. Some areas have a problem with grazing and some are high risk fire areas. So if there is no threat from roads being put in or grazing and the population of the cactus is know and relatively small in numbers then naming it as a new species is not really very helpful to its future growth in habitat, only its future growth in glasshouses all over the world. Now I'm not saying that this was anyone's intention but sometimes excitement to share what you found exceeds the need to keep it quiet.

I also want to point out that from some of the talks I have attended I have heard many cactus hunters saying that if there is an oil rich area the cactus are generally fenced off to save them from getting in harms way from vehicles or other heavy machinery and that the guys working on the rigs know exactly where they are located so why go to all that trouble of safeguarding them to then plough an needless road through the middle of them? As ascertained in a previous post who are we after changing the face of our own landscape to tell other countries that they have no right to expand, especially as they seem perfectly aware of what they have in their own country and as we know if enough people feel that financial gain is to be had by putting in a road network or high speed railway for example no amount of conservation arguments will dissuade them.

[DaveW]

Agreed certain species are endangered by illegal collection Jo, but my point was against the incorrect emphasis by officialdom on this being the main danger to the Cactaceae. They seemingly do this in order to avoid criticising the real culprits for political reasons, which are the countries that are allowing other human and animal activity such as mining, agriculture (viticulture in Chile's case) road building urban sprawl and the running of animals like goats and donkeys over the hills that have an the knack of being able to dig out and eat the small earth cacti. These destroy cacti in numbers that make illegal collecting a mere pin prick in conservation terms, although they may endanger a few species.

My pictures show the pulverising of a Chilean hillside to produce roadstone. These heaps have not been dumped there from elsewhere, that was originally the rocks as in the background that stood there previously.

These are the Copiapoa's remaining on part of the hill not yet ground up, but which will almost inevitably suffer the same fate by being simply destroyed. However if we collected them and tried to export them we would get officialdom placing all manner of hurdles in our way and wrongly condemning collectors trying to save them, simply because they will not admit their political silence and "jobsworth" bureaucracy is the main threat to the Cactaceae.

We have to be careful condemning others doing what our own country has done in the past though. Chile needs new roads as we do, but it should go hand in hand with a plant rescue scheme. In the USA cactus societies are allowed to collect development threatened plants and sell them to the public with a minimum of easily obtained documentation. There is no reason why such plants with official tags should not be easily exported around the world without any further CITES documentation being required, although I suppose that might put a few present CITES bureaucrats in the public service on the dole, which is why they probably resist it! What our Society should always be fighting against is the misinformation that it is illegal collection that is the main threat to the Cactaceae.

At least the USA has a more enlightened attitude to plant rescue than many other countries:-

http://www.centralarizonacactus.org/rescue.html

http://www.tucsoncactus.org/html/cactus_rescue.html

[RAYWOODBRIDGE]

Dave you seem on good form after your holiday/cactus explorer trim to Chile " Welcome back "
yes I have family and friends in the states and I have seen roadside plant sales by societies or conservation groups, most of the plants look rough though but they are habitat plants not the lush green things we have in our greenhouses. that system put into other habitats would be a great idea but may be a little simplistic for bureaucrats.