hosepipe, watering can or underwatering?

[Tina]

For me it's a labour of love, I don't mind the time I enjoy pottering in the green.
I don't water any plants from above apart from the odd exception like uebelmannia, I have brushes, tweezers etc for getting dust, gravel n stuff off the plants.
Ariocarpus seem to do very well from tray watering & enjoy damp roots.

What's on your wish list Ian, with Colin's help I'm spreading variegated agaves thru out the branches ( he takes some sale plants with him )

Agaves are looking good now, they didn't like that very hot weather we had early in the year- it was a bit of a shock to them, a friend has had a lot of damage to his plants.
Never watered overhead, direct onto the soil in the pan I also keep bubble wrap up all year.

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[IainS]

Tina: Earlier, when I wrote that we currently only have one variegated Agave, this didn't include two A. victoriae-reginae plants which although "normal" do technically and obviously have white stripes.

So, knowing you are the Queen of Variegated Agaves, please tell me if I have missed something which should be on our short-list:

Agave 'Kichio Khan' (or Kisshokan')
Agave victoriae-reginae albomarginata
Agave filifera marginata

And, maybe, Agave lophantha quadricolour - although I'm not fully convinced.

I'm sure you will have read a bit of what I think of the need for a deeper approach to education. Whereas our modest collection isn't for public viewing, it is specifically targeted/intended to enhance the appreciation of our team who are responsible for 30.700acres of the succulent karoo. And, deeper still, for being the best they can be as a wider general public project. My colleagues know they can expect the very best, as I don't dumb down to those who know me. The principle "less is more" definitely works. Agaves definitely work. And variegated plants definitely have their place - provided they aren't overdone. (So these are our brief guidelines.)

The plant in your second photo, centre bottom, looks interesting.

Going beyond Agaves, I'm sure you will approve of two other plants on the short "wanted" list: Dorstenia gigas and Dorstenia lavrani - both of which seem to hit the mark (although I've yet to see the latter species beyond photos). And I appreciate they need more heat during the winter months.

SpinesandRosettes: Most of our greenhouse staging is aluminium slats, powder-coated green. Although the leaves of our Agaves are clean from overhead watering with a can, the staging does clearly have water marks on it.

[spinesandrosettes]

Hi Tina,
There is at least one post on this thread I want to reply to, with some very curious notions, however, I'm having a very busy day, and I thought I would take a quick break and indulge in communication of more light-hearted and fun nature.
Those are a couple of great photos, with a very nice display of beautiful agave specimens. May I add that you are clearly a fine ambassador for these plants, especially for my favorites... variegates which fall into the larger category of "Teratopia" (re: Gordon Rowley) type succulents.
I would like to use your photos as a sort of self-administered pop-quiz, and hopefully, you can correct me of errors in ID.
Photo 1: From top left: 1) the single leaf of light green and cream edges - A. weberii Arizona Star, 2) the leaf visible directly under that one - A. americana Striata, 3) in the rear - A. americana Medio Picta Aurea, 4) in front of that, A. Blue Glow variegated cultivar known as Sun Glow or Snow Glow (I believe they are the same - shaded ones are very white, sunny positioned ones the white becomes yellow), 5) to the right of that - A. gypsophila Ivory Curls, 6) to the right of that - another Sun (Snow) Glow?, 7) small plant directly in front - can't really see it, 8) 1/2 plant visible to the right, A. xylonacantha Frostbite, 9) to the left of that - A. lophantha Splendida (or aka A. univitatta), 10) left of that, with tell-tale purple mottling - Manfreda sp., 11) left of that - is that an A. macroacantha?, 12) left of that - A. parryi Truncata, 13), to the right and lower in the photo - one of the many cool A. isthmensis cultivar/hybrids (A. pototorum is solitary, A. isthmensis prolific offsetters), 14) To the right - a beautiful A. Kissho Kan (another in the group of A. isthmensis Japanese cultivar/hybrid origin), 15) To the left of that - A. pumilla, 16) to the left of that, one of my absolute 2 best favorite A. victoriae reginae cultivars - A. victoriae reginae Medio Picta (my favorite of the 2 versions of MP), 17) to the left of that - a fantastically marked A. victoriae reginae - I'm keying on the short looking leaves - is that a "Kizan"? Compacta?
Photo 2: from top left to right - gypsophila I.C. again, Sun Glow again, then 1) to the rear in the shadow - A. macroacantha, 2) in front of that, a fabulous specimen of A. macroacantha "Blue Ribbon" aka marginata, 3) below that in the small pot, can't really see it - but I'll take a stab - A. schidigera culitvar or A. filifera Compacta cultivar???, 4) left of that - A. isthmensis group, 5) my absolute favorite of all the A. victoriae reginae with different names: White Rhino, Snow Queen, Albo Marginata, White Variegated. I only have about 20 acquired under any of those 4 names, but it's not enough! If that were the only agave I could own, I'd be really happy. , 6) left of that - A. Kissho Kan, 7) to the left of that in the larger pot - can't really tell but from the seemingly smooth leaf margins and leaf shape, I'd say perhaps A. weberii or the hybrid known as A. Blue Flame, or something like that. 8) skip to the bottom row - left in small square pot - A. Kissho Kan Medio Picta???, 9) to the right of that - what a fantastic plant!!! Due to it's very distinctive leaf shape, that is something I think of as A. Verschaffeltii , and it's a fantastic Medio Picta version (drooling), 10) to the right - A. romanii (don't have one, but that's what I think it is) - is that what they call "Shadow Dancer" ? Whatever it is, it's NICE!!! 11) right of that, I'm focusing on the twisty spines - looks like a pup of the A. parryi Truncata from the other photo, 12) to the right, last but not least - another A. victoriae reginae but Kazo Bana cultivar (or yellow variegated, etc.)

Anyway, thank you for that visual feast - lot's of fun!!!

[IainS]

Tina: I think we've just found your true soul mate.

And he's got 20 variations on Agave victoriae-reginae albomarginata - so I'm in the queue too.

[KarlR]

This discussion reminds me a bit of the soil (or soil-less) debate. I don't really think there are any "correct" ways of watering, apart from not watering when the plants would rather stay dry. So long as the plants get a sufficient amount of water they will usually be happy about their lot in life whether the water is coming from above or below.

If one cannot stand any spots or blemishes that might appear on the plants from overhead watering, then I think it's completely logical to only water from below. The plants won't mind so long as they aren't completely coated in dust which, after all, isn't likely to happen in a greenhouse environment. And if it does, a good spraying with the water hose would probably suffice for a few years.

On the other hand, if one isn't very concerned with some spots or maybe a bit of discoloured wool then I see absolutely no problem in watering from above, whether with a can or a hose. Apart from an aesthetic aspect (which may or may not be relevant) the only main argument I see in favour of watering from below is that it allows a thorough soaking of the soil. If the soil has become compacted or if the plant has expanded to basically cover the sides of the pot (and really should be repotted) then overhead watering might not be as effective in giving the plant the required amount of water.

One of the advantages of watering from above (apart from washing away any potential dust) is also to help wash away excess build-up of salts from fertilisers. If one fertilises regularly and only waters from below, it is likely that an excess of salts will build up in the surface area of the soil which may not be particularly beneficial. Watering from above is also often less time consuming, which is an important factor for many. Oh, and talking about aesthetics, many succulents (particularly many of the spinier cacti) will often look particularly striking when wet.

In the end I think it's much the same with watering as it is with which growing medium to use. The plants will be happy so long as they get enough water to satisfy their needs, yet not so much that it becomes a problem. Apart from that I don't think many of them are particularly concerned about which direction the water is coming from. All the plants I grow under artificial light are watered almost exclusively from below and are perfectly happy with this, while the plants in my greenhouse are usually watered from above with a can or hose and are similarly happy with this.

[spinesandrosettes]

Tina: I think we've just found your true soul mate.

And he's got 20 variations on Agave victoriae-reginae albomarginata - so I'm in the queue too.

What? I've read your remark now a few times, trying to ascribe various motivations and meanings, and I keep coming back to the same thing. I can't see any other way to read what you said, other than an intended insult. I tried to give you the benefit of any doubt, but it doesn't fly (the emoticons you chose remove all doubts). Sir, that was a little out of the blue, and uncalled for. What beef do you have with me? Seriously Iain, if you've tired of bickering with IanW, and looking for another challenge, you really need to choose more wisely. I'll give you some very good advice and a courtesy notice that you don't want to go sparring with me intellectually. Let's just call it a word to the wise. Pathetic attempts to twist my words won't be tolerated.

IainS, I'm pretty sure that what I said is that I have approximately 20 specimens of the White Variegated victoriae reginae that are occasionally offered under the different names (White Rhino, Snow Queen, Albo Marginata, White Variegated). I just now rephrased my words so that even you can understand them, although I'm sure no one else was confused. You might want to read that part I wrote again and perhaps brush up on your comprehension skills.

Or is it that you don't believe I have that many of the white variegated v-r? It's my very favorite plant...what can I say? I'm nuts about them. Is that a crime?

Of course I don't think there are 20 different "variations", nor did I actually say that, only that people are calling them under 4 different names (that I know of to date). Although no two plants are exactly alike, that does not warrant different cultivar names, and if you ask me, even the 4 different names they are going by is unwarranted as well. In my opinion, they are all essentially the same thing being sold under different names. And again...I mentioned 4, and even gave the names. Here's an exercise for you...it's called counting. White Rhino. That makes one. Snow Queen, that makes two. Albo Marginata , t-h-r-e-e (3), and White Variegated - four! Get it? 1, 2, 3, 4. Four, is not twenty.

I really think you already know what I said, and we're looking to pick a fight. Bad idea!

[spinesandrosettes]

Karl, very good encapsulation of the discussion and very well said. I couldn't agree more.

Dave, in contemplating your comments, it strikes me that you have a dry, witty sense of humor that escaped me initially. Very good!
"I was speaking about proper plants since I did say cacti." proper plants, love it.
"looking as artificial as poodles in a dog show." "his plants were more like poodles in a dog show " I take it you don't like poodles, and/or dog shows.
Quite droll.
Anyway, you seem like a genuine, nice enough fellow. I can appreciate that.

[IainS]

Spinesandrosettes: Actually, I was paying you - and Tina - a big compliment (as well as an attempt at humour), as you both have a tremendous appreciation for Agaves and variegated ones in particular. I then attempted to link my own considerable appreciation of these wonderful plants with yours, even though Tina and yourself have gone further than myself - thus my lower ranking in the queue of compatibility. Agave victoriae-reginae is my personal favourite, with a variegated one on my limited "wanted" list, as clearly stated above. Which just goes to show how easily misinterpretations and misunderstandings can happen.

As for what I wrote on the other thread you referred to, I made some extremely - blatantly so - constructive points which nobody has even (unsurprisingly) acknowledged on the thread. Not to mention, I likely have far more relevant professional experience of what I was referring to than anyone else on this forum. I could have said much, much more - including all of the psychological explanations for the various responses of others, which are transparently obvious. Your description of calling what I wrote back to Ian as "bickering" shows limitations on your part. I backed off, because there should be a far greater emphasis on the need to think harder to understand, as it is much easier to dumb down and misunderstand.

[IainS]

Spinesandrosettes: And I should probably add - if you need further explanation and a bit of detail - why I complimented you on your 20 variegated plants of A. victoriae-reginae. I didn't miscount, nor call them cultivars. I correctly assumed there would in all likelihood be variations or clone differences - which you confirmed in what you have subsequently written. But if we're talking serious maths much beyond twenty, then I might get into trouble.

I sincerely hope you are able to see that the misunderstanding was yours and we can move forwards in our shared love for Agaves etc. I'm not in the slightest bit offended, by the way, as I clearly understand what has happened. But if you want to send me one of your very best variegated Agaves by means of an apology, I'll happily accept! (And, to be crystal, that's a joke.)

[spinesandrosettes]

Iain,
Thank you very much for your gracious reply, and I am happy to accept that I misunderstood your comments, and that being the case, offer my sincere apology. That we all love these plants is more than enough for a common bond. I will do my best not to misconstrue any future comments.
Best Regards,
Tom


P.S. I just completed a new greenhouse kit to help absorb the pressure of protected space needed for a probably over-ambitious collection of new additions this year, and trying to beat the change in weather that has made itself quite obvious lately. I am sorting out some shelving, rearranging plants, and finally all my v-r's are going to reside together in one convenient area. Hopefully, that doesn't come back to bite me from the "all eggs in one basket" point of view. Anyway, I've been growing them for some time, and feel confident enough in the new conditions that they will all be quite happy, together. I should be done later today, and will post a family photo of my most favorite of all agaves.