Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
Forum rules
For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents only.

Please respect all forum members opinions and if you can't make a civil reply, don't reply!
Post Reply
lzrddr
Registered Guest
Posts: 92
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Branch: None
Country: USA

Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by lzrddr » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:52 pm

I showed a plant of mine, I had grown from a cutting some years ago as Tylecodon wallichii, on the succulent bonsai thread yesterday, and someone chimed up that it was not T wallichii but T cacalioides. Since I am no expert, I just wanted to clear this up so I understand the difference between the two. From what I understood, T wallichii is a common, relatively fast growing plant (which mine certainly has been... growing from a cutting to over 3 feet across in just 8 years in the ground) with bright green leaves that have a flattened (somewhat) side. Plants I have seen labeled as T wallichii have been pretty consistent here in southern California and this species is relatively common and cheap. I have grown dozens of cuttings from this plant of mine (keep hacking off the lower limbs) and they are so easy to grow it seems a crime to even charge $ for them (so I have just given them away).

See the photos below which show not only my plant, but other people's plants which I have understood to be T wallichii.

shots from the Huntington Gardens and plant show:
Tylecodon wallichiana H.jpg
Tylecodon wallichaina leaves coming back Oct.jpg
Tylecodon wallichaina leaves coming back Oct.jpg (102.85 KiB) Viewed 2705 times
Tylecodone wallichii at show.jpg
From my own garden:
Tylecodon wallichiana.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii more leafy.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii early flower stalks 4-12.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii early flower stalks 4-12.jpg (126.77 KiB) Viewed 2705 times
Tylecodon wallichii flowering 6-10.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii in shade in full bloom 7-14.jpg
Tylecodon wallichia flowers.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii small roots 7-13.jpg
dug up plant ready for big move
lzrddr
Registered Guest
Posts: 92
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Branch: None
Country: USA

Re: Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by lzrddr » Sat Jul 19, 2014 5:58 pm

On the other hand, I learned (probably incorrectly) that Tylecodon cacalioides was a much slower growing plant, far rarer and more expensive and with knobbier branches and more grey, fusiform leaves. The plant I acquired as T cacalioides has certainly been a far slower grower, hardly enlarging at all in 6 years in the ground. Never seen a large one in any other collection, either. Nor have I ever seen this species flower... not sure when it does in fact.

Here are a few shots of other people's Tylecodon cacalioides:
Tylecodon cacalioides potted Petra.jpg
Tylecodon cacalioides potted Petra.jpg (105.36 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
Tylecodon cacalioids Petere.jpg
Tylecodon cacalioids Petere.jpg (99.39 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
Tylecodon cacalioides cc.jpg
Tylecodon cacalioides cc.jpg (61.14 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
Here are mine either in ground, or cuttings in a pot:
Tylecodon cacalioides and Graptoveria update.jpg
Tylecodone cacalioides update 2-11.jpg
Tyledocon cacalioides nice shot.jpg
Tyledocon cacalioides nice shot.jpg (108.15 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
Tylecodon cacalioides cuttings in greenhouse.jpg
Tylecodon cacalioides cuttings in greenhouse.jpg (69.93 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
and here is a shot of cuttings of both my plants... the large, bright green one is the one I know of as Tylecodon wallichii, and the smaller, blue-grey one is what I have learned to be Tylecodon cacalioides... do I have these all backwards??
Tylecodon wallichii and cacalioides 1 11-13.jpg
Tylecodon wallichii and cacalioides 1 11-13.jpg (55.87 KiB) Viewed 2702 times
User avatar
Apicra
BCSS Member
Posts: 1245
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: HARROW
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Branch Chair
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by Apicra » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:10 pm

Hello who-ever and where-ever you are,

Without flowers, Tylecodon cacaloides and wallichii cannot be distinguished. I cannot comment upon vigour and price in the US, but two of your photos look suspicious to me. Your second and last photos show lighter green, flattened(?) leaves and stems without the raised leaf-bases (phyllopodia) and a yellow-ish bark. I suspect these are T. wallichii/paniculatus hybrids?

T. wallichii is the more widespread in South Africa, with a tubular flower that may be dull pale yellow. In the north, the flowers are a little hairy, sometimes with a red tint, and called subsp. ecklonianus. In the Little Karoo, flowers are bright sulphur yellow, longer, with a narrower tube at the base that flares wider at the mouth - this is T. cacaloides.

I am not sure from your photos how many different plants are shown. Are all seven photos after "From my own garden" the same plant? The flower colour seems variable, but this may be just different photo lighting. I was really judging the ID from the deep colour of the fifth photo flowers, but the other look paler and the tubular rather than trumpet-shaped flower is more like T. wallichii. It also has unusually smooth stems without phyllopodia, but shows no sign of T. paniculatus hybridity in the flowers. So I'm no longer sure I gave the correct ID before.

Best wishes,
Derek Tribble
Adromischus Displayed: http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/adrodisp/qus-author.htm
lzrddr
Registered Guest
Posts: 92
Joined: 02 Jul 2014
Branch: None
Country: USA

Re: Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by lzrddr » Mon Jul 21, 2014 12:26 am

First two T wallichii above are same plant in Huntington.. third is a show plant (not mine) and fourth I mistakenly included as mine (but it's another Huntington plant, different from the first two, but also labeled as T wallichii). Rest are all mine, all the same plant (or cuttings of it).

T cacaloides (not cacalioides?) shots are either some specialty growers or my only plant, or cuttings of it. I have noticed some other plants labeled as T wallichii that do not have the flattened leaves on one side and are totally fusiform, but are brighter green and more robust than T cacaloides (at least was is called T cacaloides). ONly T cacaloides I have ever seen in the ground is my own (everyone else keeps them in pots, due to expense I assume) which may alter their appearance somewhat.
User avatar
Apicra
BCSS Member
Posts: 1245
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: HARROW
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Branch Chair
Location: London, UK
Contact:

Re: Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by Apicra » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:15 pm

Yes, sorry, should be T. cacalioides throughout.

I've had both in flower in my UK greenhouse this summer and remembered another difference. The flower head of T. cacalioides is more compact than T. wallichii, i.e. some lateral branches are at nearly right-angles to the inflorescence, whereas for T. wallichii, branches all spread at an acute angle. Your bedded/bonsai potted plant does have compact flower heads, so I'm suggesting T. cacalioides again for the ID, despite the colour variation of the photos.

Have a look at some plants in habitat:

http://www.ispot.org.za/species_diction ... acalioides

http://www.ispot.org.za/species_diction ... 0wallichii

Best wishes,
DT
User avatar
ChrisR
BCSS Member
Posts: 1892
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: SHEFFIELD
Country: England
Role within the BCSS: Member
Location: Sheffield, UK
Contact:

Re: Tylecodon wallichii versus cacalioides

Post by ChrisR » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:35 pm

lzrddr wrote:....do I have these all backwards??
If it helps.....all the farmers I've met in Namaqualand who complain about T.wallichii as poisonous to their livestock, they dig out the plant with grey, roughish leaves and the knobbly stem.
Chris Rodgerson- Sheffield UK

BCSS 27098

see http://www.conophytum.com for about 1250 pictures of Conophytum, 370 Adromischus and 430 Crassula in habitat & in cultivation.
Post Reply