Importing with phyto certificate

[Davey246]

I don't think there's any difference between amateur and commercial imports or for differing quantities of plants. CITES has changed in that the UK is now a separate country and not part of the EU which was treated as one country for CITES. I think a phyto from a EU country will double up as a CITES export permit but this still needs to be combined with a CITES import permit. When I last had one, the charges were £25 per genus, I can't see Wilkos paying £25 per genus to import a tray of mixed cacti so maybe there are exceptions.

Stuart

CITES and phyto are totally and utterly, completely unconnected.
The situation between the UK being in and out of the EU is very largely irrelevant also. Unless there is an open general licence in force, CITES cert's are required.
I breed some birds subject to CITES and I need an A10 for each one to sell them WITHIN the UK, and always have, and always have needed A10's to import them from anywhere.

In the case of import/export, the documentaion covering just that usually states a number and if the items can be individually identified (such as Australian tree-ferns, which are tgged), the documents will contain those details.

[Stuart]

From the current DEFRA website regarding the connection between CITES and phyto.

"The UK will accept joint CITES-phytosanitary certificates used in lieu of CITES export permits"

If we were still in the single market none of this would have been necessary for EU imports, no CITES permits were required before Brexit as the EU was regarded as one country by CITES.

Stuart

[Davey246]

Yes - read that carefully - they accept a combined CITES and phyto.
They will not accept a phyto in lieu of CITES. Very different.

The statement that holds the key with CITES is that any wild organism can only be legally held and/or sold if the parents were, which is typical politician nonsense as that requirement stretches back into antiquity and beyond. I have no idea how that works with plants - quite probably there is a list of what CITES-listed species are common in cultivation. For animals, you have to have CITES papers for the (claimed) parents. CITES/A10 cert's are also issued to specific people, named on them, so that anyone wanting to sell progeny has to first re-register the parents, or register them in the name on the existing A10.

WRONG - CITES was required before Brexit, unless an open general licence was in force, it just wasn't enforced - for seeds, it would be mightily tricky to say the least unless every envelope containing them was labelled "SEEDS".
CITES is EXACTLY what it says - Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species - the EU has never been one nation/country, and probably never will be.

Import legal requirements in particular, as they are what Joe Public experiences, have changed considerably since Brexit, but they would have changed in the same way if we were still in - the EU and UK reg's are essentially identical - they changed at much the same time, in the same way.

[SimonT]

I also think it would be good to have a leaflet covering these issues. It is still a very confusing topic and some guidance specific to C&S would be great. This would be most useful now as we are reaching the time when the phased introduction of relevant controls has been completed. So we would have a relatively stable set of EU rules moving forward.

At the moment I've been assuming that ordering plants in small quantities from the EU would probably prove to be more trouble that it is worth. I'm assuming that seed will just become more expensive but might still be obtained and some mediation, such as batching of orders, is possible. But this might be wrong. It is still also very confusing regarding CITES 1/CITES 2 for seed- how in practice are these treated?

[Pattock]

Here is the RHS advice page:

https://www.rhs.org.uk/prevention-prote ... ing-plants

[SimonT]

I found the gov.uk guidance was the most helpful, but I still can't quite find the information I'd like to read.

For example, say I want to buy one packet of (CITES 2) cactus seed from a reputable EU seed catalogue.
If I do this now (before July 1st) the seed might cost me £1.00 and the overall cost with postage from the EU might come to something like £10.00. [Obviously in practice I'd order more than one packet per order and reduce the postage cost per packet.] The process is quite simple though, typically I just need to place an order eg on a web site, provide postal details and pay for the order.

So after July, for my seed order, I also need to register on PEACH as an importer? How much does this cost? How painful is the process and will there be any ongoing costs? Assuming that the EU supplier from their end now provides a PC certificate for the seed (how much will this cost, will it apply per packet or per order) will I still need other paperwork or is the rest of the process as before? So for my £1.00, 1 packet order, how much will my packet of seed now cost and how much more of my time will it take up to get a packet of seed?

[Pattock]

I found the gov.uk guidance was the most helpful, but I still can't quite find the information I'd like to read.

For example, say I want to buy one packet of (CITES 2) cactus seed from a reputable EU seed catalogue.
If I do this now (before July 1st) the seed might cost me £1.00 and the overall cost with postage from the EU might come to something like £10.00. [Obviously in practice I'd order more than one packet per order and reduce the postage cost per packet.] The process is quite simple though, typically I just need to place an order eg on a web site, provide postal details and pay for the order.

So after July, for my seed order, I also need to register on PEACH as an importer? How much does this cost? How painful is the process and will there be any ongoing costs? Assuming that the EU supplier from their end now provides a PC certificate for the seed (how much will this cost, will it apply per packet or per order) will I still need other paperwork or is the rest of the process as before? So for my £1.00, 1 packet order, how much will my packet of seed now cost and how much more of my time will it take up to get a packet of seed?

It is not PEACH now (which spoils my intended use of a Presidents of the United States of America lyric reference), it is IPAFFS - but I think it is still free to register. PEACH continues for existing registrations but new ones need to be with IPAFFS. Notification of IPAFFS of your incoming order presumably takes a quick form to fill online. I would leave at least a day and a half free for that.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/import-of-p ... eed-system

The PC should cover the whole consignment of seeds, one packet or a lorryload. It will cost what the company you are buying from thinks it will cost, influenced by their government policies. Uhlig Kakteen, for example, charge €25. If they have imported one of the seeds from another country outside the EU, they should provide a PC from that source for those seeds. That will probably be ignored by most companies as it would be unlikely to be followed up with the kind of detective work needed to show wrongdoing.

If your consignment needs plant health checks, these fees will apply:

Documentary checks - you have to pay £5.25 in England and Wales. This fee applies to all regulated plants and plant products, including those on the high-priority list.
Identity checks - how much you have to pay in England and Wales will depend on the type of plant material you import, including its risk level.
Physical checks - how much you have to pay in England and Wales will depend on the type of plant material you import, including its risk level.

These plant health checks should only happen if they see weevils crawling out of the parcel or you have ordered a lemon tree from Norway (or other equally dangerous imports).
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/import-plan ... lth-checks

The company sending the seeds attaches the correct customs declaration and PC. Simple and straightforward.

The other major possible cause of delay to your order may be that the entire system will overload within weeks, the postal, lorry transport and courier systems will grind to a halt at the border and the whole country will soon be suffering from nutritional deficiencies from lack of fruit and vegetables and barely able to work. Or perhaps the government has fully staffed the relevant posts and got them all trained up and run exercises for all the possible problems. There is always a first time.

[Stuart]

This is where the BCSS seed list starts to be appreciated s bit more by UK members as it saves the hassle of buying abroad. Registration with PEACH is easy and free. Most well-known couriers know the procedure and if there is a Customs inspection they'll do all the work with PEACH, usually for no charge, as long as you're on the PEACH list. As for the cost of a phyto, this is going to vary from country to country. I've paid £10 for one in Korea and £150 for one in the USA. One phyto covers a whole shipment but most EU countries assume phytos are for large commercial shipments and charge commercial prices. When spread over thousands of plants on a truck full of Danish Trollies the cost per plant is negligible. When applied to the £1 packet of seed it's probably not going to be worth doing. Still, the Mesem Study Group here in the UK sent their overseas orders in one parcel to the EU with the seed being distributed from the EU. They obtained a UK phyto though how anyone inspected mesemb seed is anyone's guess. It shows that things are possible with a bit of enterprise and effort.

Stuart

[Pattock]

They obtained a UK phyto though how anyone inspected mesemb seed is anyone's guess.

Easy to spot any weevils.

[SimonT]

I've found a table here https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/ ... checks.pdf that gives an idea of the inspection costs.

So for the 1 packet of seeds the indicative costs are:-
£1 packet
£9 postage and packing
£6.40 Physical check
£0.26 ID check
£5.25 doc check
£40.00 phyto [£10 to £150.00]
£0.00 PEACH or similar

So then for my £1 packet, that cost £10.00 to the door, these new costs add an extra ~£50.00 to the costs of a packet of seed. Cost to the door goes from £10.00 to £60.00.

Obviously this is the worst-case, one packet ordered online. It argues for ordering in bulk or ordering from the seed pool as Stuart mentioned.

From what I can tell ordering plants rather than seed is more expensive (!) in terms of the checks but the other costs are similar.