EU Plant Passport Scheme

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daydreamer
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by daydreamer »

Paul D wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:21 am DEFRA have issued some clarification of what is a professional grower for the purposes of plant passports. It seems that having a price list means you are a professional.
https://www.forum.bcss.org.uk/Amateurs.pdf
The document clearly recognises amateur, non-professional and professional operators. Only professionals need to register. A professional is someone who makes a profit from selling plants or is paid for some service they provide that involves plants in some way. If you have a price list or a dedicated website listing plants for sale you “may be considered to sell regularly with a view to making a profit”. However, if you only produce the occasional list and can show that your costs in producing the plants exceed the sale price you are not making a profit and are therefore not a professional so wouldn’t need to register.
The document also says under Home Gardener:
“If you grow plants in your garden and sell them, you will only be considered to be a professional operator if you do so with a view to making a regular profit (i.e. you regularly sell them with a view to making a profit).”
Last edited by daydreamer on Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Paul D
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by Paul D »

daydreamer wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:04 am
Paul D wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:21 am DEFRA have issued some clarification of what is a professional grower for the purposes of plant passports. It seems that having a price list means you are a professional.
https://www.forum.bcss.org.uk/Amateurs.pdf
The document clearly recognises amateur, non-professional and professional operators. Only professionals need to register. A professional is someone who makes a profit from selling plants or is paid for some service they provide that involves plants in some way. If you have a price list or a dedicated website listing plants for sale you “may be considered to sell regularly with a view to making a profit”. However, if you only produce the occasional list and can show that your costs in producing the plants exceed the sale price you are not making a profit and are therefore not a professional so wouldn’t need to register.
It depends on interpretation by staff. I have been told to remove my price list or register for plant passports.
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daydreamer
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by daydreamer »

Paul D wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:14 am
daydreamer wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:04 am
Paul D wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:21 am DEFRA have issued some clarification of what is a professional grower for the purposes of plant passports. It seems that having a price list means you are a professional.
https://www.forum.bcss.org.uk/Amateurs.pdf
The document clearly recognises amateur, non-professional and professional operators. Only professionals need to register. A professional is someone who makes a profit from selling plants or is paid for some service they provide that involves plants in some way. If you have a price list or a dedicated website listing plants for sale you “may be considered to sell regularly with a view to making a profit”. However, if you only produce the occasional list and can show that your costs in producing the plants exceed the sale price you are not making a profit and are therefore not a professional so wouldn’t need to register.
It depends on interpretation by staff. I have been told to remove my price list or register for plant passports.
That seems a very harsh interpretation, as they are assuming you are making a regular profit from the sales.
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by el48tel »

daydreamer wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:19 am
Paul D wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:14 am
daydreamer wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:04 am

The document clearly recognises amateur, non-professional and professional operators. Only professionals need to register. A professional is someone who makes a profit from selling plants or is paid for some service they provide that involves plants in some way. If you have a price list or a dedicated website listing plants for sale you “may be considered to sell regularly with a view to making a profit”. However, if you only produce the occasional list and can show that your costs in producing the plants exceed the sale price you are not making a profit and are therefore not a professional so wouldn’t need to register.
It depends on interpretation by staff. I have been told to remove my price list or register for plant passports.
That seems a very harsh interpretation, as they are assuming you are making a regular profit from the sales.
I defy you to define "regular" .....one plant per month is regular.
Endeavouring to grow Aylostera, Echinocereus, Echinopsis, Gymnocalycium, Matucana, Rebutia, and Sulcorebutia. Fallen out of love with Lithops and aggravated by Aeoniums.
Currently being wooed by Haworthia, attempting hybridisation, and enticed by Mesembs.
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by Paul D »

daydreamer wrote: That seems a very harsh interpretation, as they are assuming you are making a regular profit from the sales.
Agreed. The law requires subjectivity; the clarification provided gives a set of rules. Staff don't have the time or the desire to assess amateurs on the basis of their accounts expenses and /or profits or lack thereof. Arguing the case that amateurs produce lists too isn't getting anywhere.
Paul in North-east Scotland (Grampian Branch BCSS)
National Collection Rebutia, Aylostera & Weingartia (inc. Sulcorebutia). Also growing a mixture including Ferocactus, Gymnocalycium, Lobivia, Mammillaria, Lithops, Gasteria, Haworthia.
http://www.rebutia.org.uk
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by Chris L »

OK, I've looked at this and it is simple.

If you pay for an inspection you won't need to have an inspection.

Suppose an inspection costs £600 and you signed up and registered for an inspection you would need to make a profit of £601 to still be in profit after the inspection. If you make a profit of less than £600 then you will have lost money (not made a profit) so you won't need to have an inspection.

And it is still DAFT because I could sell pest free plants through the post and save all my grotty mealy bug ridden ones for face to face sales.
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by el48tel »

Chris L wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:40 pm OK, I've looked at this and it is simple.

If you pay for an inspection you won't need to have an inspection.

Suppose an inspection costs £600 and you signed up and registered for an inspection you would need to make a profit of £601 to still be in profit after the inspection. If you make a profit of less than £600 then you will have lost money (not made a profit) so you won't need to have an inspection.

And it is still DAFT because I could sell pest free plants through the post and save all my grotty mealy bug ridden ones for face to face sales.
Daft .... of course it's daft ..... got to be daft because it has to be "self financing". No self respecting government scheme can be anything else.
Endeavouring to grow Aylostera, Echinocereus, Echinopsis, Gymnocalycium, Matucana, Rebutia, and Sulcorebutia. Fallen out of love with Lithops and aggravated by Aeoniums.
Currently being wooed by Haworthia, attempting hybridisation, and enticed by Mesembs.
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by MalcolmP2 »

In the practice of law there is a term "de minimis" (, non curat lex).

But how often does this get applied to executive actions ?
Unknown, until it is tested in court, (Clint)Do you feel lucky(/Eastwood)
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by Chris L »

There is another PDF here:

https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/ ... idance.pdf

See comments 6.8
To issue PPs a professional operator must be able to demonstrate to the competent authority (suchas APHA or the Forestry Commission) that they:
---Have knowledge of pest biology, best practice in pest prevention and eradication planning and ways to take these forward if regulated pests are encountered at authorised premises.
---Have trained staff who are responsible for carrying out inspections of plant or wood products that must have a PP when moved within the EU.
----Have systems and procedures in place to fulfil obligations regarding traceability of consignments and to keep appropriate records for 3 years.

This will be assessed as part of the application and authorisation process.
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Re: EU Plant Passport Scheme

Post by KarlR »

Chris L wrote: Fri Jun 12, 2020 9:18 am There is another PDF here:

https://planthealthportal.defra.gov.uk/ ... idance.pdf

See comments 6.8
To issue PPs a professional operator must be able to demonstrate to the competent authority (suchas APHA or the Forestry Commission) that they:
---Have knowledge of pest biology, best practice in pest prevention and eradication planning and ways to take these forward if regulated pests are encountered at authorised premises.
---Have trained staff who are responsible for carrying out inspections of plant or wood products that must have a PP when moved within the EU.
----Have systems and procedures in place to fulfil obligations regarding traceability of consignments and to keep appropriate records for 3 years.

This will be assessed as part of the application and authorisation process.
To me that excerpt is either a clear answer that hobbyists are exempt, or it is a catch 22 which basically prohibits hobbyists from distance selling. I.e. you're classified as a professional so you have to issue plant passports to distance sell, but you don't have the required knowledge or facilities to issue plant passports so you can't distance sell.
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