Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
Forum rules
For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation, exhibition & science of cacti & other succulents only.

Please respect all forum members opinions and if you can't make a civil reply, don't reply!
User avatar
Tony R
Moderator
Posts: 4011
https://www.behance.net/kuchnie-warszawa
Joined: 20 Apr 2009
Branch: BROMLEY
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Member
Location: Hartley, LONGFIELD, Kent

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Tony R »

MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm I can give dozens of examples of communities whose online talks are distributed free over the dreaded internet, mainly on YouTube, but also some other proprietary platforms. And I believe they are not breaking copyright laws by doing so. This really is not a discussion about law interpretation, but rather a general approach to "marketing".
... and I would like to think that the BCSS will indeed embrace the technology further in the future with its own YouTube channel, etc, etc.

However, it was made clear at the beginning by Ian that these ZOOM talks are NOT recorded (see the introduction on the relevant webpage and in many eNews). They are only recorded and/or live-streamed with the express permission of the speaker and if he/she so desires.

Please be careful not to be disrespectful to our speakers, for they are a major lifeblood of our Society and without them many branches or even the Society would have folded long ago.
Tony Roberts
Treasurer, Haworthia Society
Chairman, Tephrocactus Study Group
Moderator, BCSS Forum
Kent
(Gasteria, Mammillaria, small Opuntia, Cleistocactus and Sempervivum are my current special interests)
User avatar
MatDz
BCSS Member
Posts: 2110
Joined: 06 May 2020
Branch: None
Country: PL/GB
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by MatDz »

el48tel wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 7:39 am
MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm
el48tel wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:56 pm Oh if it only were so simplistic.
You don't impose copyright ... IT IS the right of the composer/author in law. Full stop. In all the civilized countries on this planet.
The problem with the web is simple ... people think if it's on the web it's for free. It ain't. Full stop. You want it ... you pay for it.
We are, a few quids a year, but we are.

I honestly don't understand where this defensive and slightly truculent tone comes from. I can give dozens of examples of communities whose online talks are distributed free over the dreaded internet, mainly on YouTube, but also some other proprietary platforms. And I believe they are not breaking copyright laws by doing so. This really is not a discussion about law interpretation, but rather a general approach to "marketing".
Mat
Thank you for the beautiful alliteration .... truculent tone. I like that. I don't intend entering into a lengthy discussion on this. It's not what you believe about the contractual status, nor what other Internet users believe they may do with published work. It's what contract exists between the author and the organisation which published it.
One of us is clearly missing the other's point here, and I don't think it's me, but as you wrote, this is not a place for a lengthy discussion on the Society's future, or a lack of thereof.
Mat
User avatar
Paul in Essex
BCSS Member
Posts: 2093
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: SOUTHEND-ON-SEA
Country: England
Role within the BCSS: Member
Location: North Thames Delta
Contact:

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Paul in Essex »

Mat, perhaps I can explain it in another way and hopefully without any 'tone'.

Someone takes a picture. Let's use David as an example - he makes one of his beautiful stacked focus images of a flower that is filled with almost 3D detail. To get to the point where he is able to create that image takes years of experience and practice, expensive hardware and software. The image he creates doesn't exist anywhere else because he created it. it is his property but because it is intangible it is called intellectual property. He delights in sharing that image with us in his presentation - we look at it on out pc screens or, in better times, from the back of the village hall where he is giving his presentation, and marvel at it.

Let's say the powerpoint presentation were to be copied and retained - published on YouTube or whatever. As soon as that image appears in the public domain it is subject to copyright. it doesn't need to be registered or applied for, it happens automatically because it is David's image, he created it, it is his property and there now subject to copyright. So that image cannot be used without his permission - payment is a side issue it is about using property without permission. If it is, it is simply a theft. Calling it a breach of copyright makes it seem acceptable.

And there is the problem - because once the image is in the public domain it is also vulnerable to being stolen - used without permission. It happens all the time, is impossible to police (and prohibitively expensive) and very difficult to prevent. But, in principle, it is no different to someone stealing your car just because it has been left on the road. It is property, you need permission to use it.

It is possible to do things to images that it harder to steal but it takes time. That time would be multiplied by 100 for the entire presentation. Ditto applying a watermark. Not everyone wants the bother of doing this.

So what does anyone do? It is a personal decision to be made solely by the owner of the images. It is not a decision to be made by the recipient of the images, any more than a person who looks longingly at my car parked on the road is in a position to decide whether he drives it or not.

It seems to have become a thing that as soon as a picture appears on the internet it is freely available for anyone to use. The idea of it being a theft seems to have been diluted or completely forgotten. So, as the owner of an image, do we care? If not then publish it on the internet and let it take its own course. I have illustrated accounts of my Mexico trips on the internet and pictures from that appear all over the place. If I were that bothered I wouldn't do it. But if I were bothered I wouldn't publish them. Similarly if the pictures accompanying one of these presentations are considered valuable (and if I were in David's position I most emphatically would) then I wouldn't want them available for people to steal.

So it isn't really about making a resource available for members of a society, it is about ownership of property.
www.oasisdesigns.co.uk

Exotic garden design.
User avatar
Chris L
BCSS Branch Websites Co-ordinator
Posts: 2601
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Branch: MANCHESTER
Country: England
Role within the BCSS: Branch Websites Co-ordinator
Location: Lancashire, England
Contact:

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Chris L »

MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm We are, a few quids a year, but we are.

I honestly don't understand where this defensive and slightly truculent tone comes from. I can give dozens of examples of communities whose online talks are distributed free over the dreaded internet, mainly on YouTube, but also some other proprietary platforms. And I believe they are not breaking copyright laws by doing so. This really is not a discussion about law interpretation, but rather a general approach to "marketing".
That's because those speakers have almost certainly given permission for them to be there. Often American speakers are PAID for giving a lecture and thus they may also be paid for allowing their material to be there.
Joined 1991
Lamb's Reference Plate Index http://www.cactus-corner.co.uk/referenc ... -guide.htm
FREE on Kindle Unlimited:
Anglesey Circular Walk https://amzn.to/34i18qF
Lytham-Arnside Walk https://amzn.to/3fpQPGf
My Redbubble Shop https://www.redbubble.com/people/cactuschris/shop
User avatar
Ian Thwaites
BCSS Member
Posts: 164
Joined: 30 Jul 2012
Branch: SPALDING
Country: UK
Role within the BCSS: Fellows

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Ian Thwaites »

I initiated the zoom talks at the start of the pandemic as a service to members to help them get through the initial lockdown never expecting this to last as long as it has. So far I have scheduled about 5 / 7 years worth of normal talks and with a spectacular variety of speakers from all over the world.

The BCSS do not pay speakers and we are very lucky that we have had so many world class contributors to these evenings. You need to ask yourself why most of the speakers give up hour after hour to prepare a talk for no reward! I can assure you this is not for any egotistical reason! Most speakers enjoy being invited to speak whether this is at a branch, convention or even overseas and the chance to meet new faces I believe is high on the agenda. There is also a lot of reciprocation - I will talk at your event if you will do the same for me. Often we find people offering to give talks so that they can sell a few home propagations that would otherwise clutter their greenhouse.

Therefore most speakers do not want their talks recorded because it may affect the potential to give talks
at a later date. I did however, at the request of people working at the time of the talks manage to get permission to stream the talks on facebook as I told the speakers that they could not be downloaded and would only be left up for 12/24 hours. This was a very kind concession on their part. However, I have recently been informed that there are tools available that will facilitate the download of video from facebook and I have found evidence that a talk has been copied and posted to youtube. I issued a takedown notice to YouTube and they complied within 3 hours but it has shown me that the extra goodwill from speakers has been abused.

To be honest, with the sad news at the last meeting I completely forgot to stream the event. I am now at a crossroads as to whether I should stream future talks.

I have also announced that I will end the weekly talks at the end of April as most branches are in fact holding their own meeting. I would like the BCSS to continue to hold a monthly meeting for those that cannot get to a local branch and for all our overseas members but I do need help. I have a multitude of work to undertake for the BCSS (and a personal life that has been on hold) and I cannot continue to undertake this solely on my own so unless help from perhaps an organising team step forward then I cannot guarantee that the meetings will continue.

Please contact me off line if you think that you can help.
Ian Thwaites
User avatar
MatDz
BCSS Member
Posts: 2110
Joined: 06 May 2020
Branch: None
Country: PL/GB
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by MatDz »

Chris L wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 8:53 am
MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 11:05 pm We are, a few quids a year, but we are.

I honestly don't understand where this defensive and slightly truculent tone comes from. I can give dozens of examples of communities whose online talks are distributed free over the dreaded internet, mainly on YouTube, but also some other proprietary platforms. And I believe they are not breaking copyright laws by doing so. This really is not a discussion about law interpretation, but rather a general approach to "marketing".
That's because those speakers have almost certainly given permission for them to be there. Often American speakers are PAID for giving a lecture and thus they may also be paid for allowing their material to be there.
Thank you Chris, you're the only one actually responding to my messages here. Yes, this is all about the speakers giving permission and this is what I am referring to since my first post on the topic. No one needs to remind anyone about copyrights and what they are or aren't. Unfortunately, this is also the "old fashioned" part that will limit the Society's reach to those that are either fully devoted to the hobby, or have an abundance of free time.

To further clarify, the streamed talks were a brilliant idea and I hope they will be continued, even if on a monthly basis.

Also, not streaming the talks on Facebook won't help much I am afraid, there is nothing preventing people to record the talks directly from their screens.
Mat
User avatar
Chris L
BCSS Branch Websites Co-ordinator
Posts: 2601
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Branch: MANCHESTER
Country: England
Role within the BCSS: Branch Websites Co-ordinator
Location: Lancashire, England
Contact:

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Chris L »

MatDz wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:47 pm Thank you Chris, you're the only one actually responding to my messages here. Yes, this is all about the speakers giving permission and this is what I am referring to since my first post on the topic. No one needs to remind anyone about copyrights and what they are or aren't. Unfortunately, this is also the "old fashioned" part that will limit the Society's reach to those that are either fully devoted to the hobby, or have an abundance of free time.

To further clarify, the streamed talks were a brilliant idea and I hope they will be continued, even if on a monthly basis.

Also, not streaming the talks on Facebook won't help much I am afraid, there is nothing preventing people to record the talks directly from their screens.
I think going forward to have content available online it needs to be specifically created for that purpose, so then permissions over IP and copyright are part of the deal in creating the said material essentially on behalf of the BCSS.

As a bit of further info there is actually a "Speakers List". People who want to give talks are listed on it and it is distributed to Branch Secretaries. It has a list of talks available from each person. They can then book the speakers for each year.

The talks have been brilliant. We can only hope they continue.
Joined 1991
Lamb's Reference Plate Index http://www.cactus-corner.co.uk/referenc ... -guide.htm
FREE on Kindle Unlimited:
Anglesey Circular Walk https://amzn.to/34i18qF
Lytham-Arnside Walk https://amzn.to/3fpQPGf
My Redbubble Shop https://www.redbubble.com/people/cactuschris/shop
User avatar
Aiko
BCSS Member
Posts: 3861
Joined: 12 Aug 2010
Branch: None
Country: Netherlands
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Aiko »

Ian Thwaites wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 9:57 am I would like the BCSS to continue to hold a monthly meeting for those that cannot get to a local branch and for all our overseas members but I do need help.
What kind of help?
User avatar
Paul in Essex
BCSS Member
Posts: 2093
Joined: 11 Jan 2007
Branch: SOUTHEND-ON-SEA
Country: England
Role within the BCSS: Member
Location: North Thames Delta
Contact:

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by Paul in Essex »

MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:22 pm
Diane wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:07 pm “Old-fashioned” it may be, but it comes under the Intellectual Property and Copyright laws.
That's only if the copyrights are a) imposed and b) broken afterwards, which no one suggested to do!
Mat, when you wrote this it gave me the impression you didn't have a handle on how copyright worked. If you do then I'm sorry to have been patronising. Could have saved myself 30 mins typing, too! :lol:
www.oasisdesigns.co.uk

Exotic garden design.
User avatar
MatDz
BCSS Member
Posts: 2110
Joined: 06 May 2020
Branch: None
Country: PL/GB
Role within the BCSS: Member

Re: Don't forget the On-Line talk on tuesday

Post by MatDz »

Paul in Essex wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:36 pm
MatDz wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:22 pm
Diane wrote: Thu Mar 04, 2021 9:07 pm “Old-fashioned” it may be, but it comes under the Intellectual Property and Copyright laws.
That's only if the copyrights are a) imposed and b) broken afterwards, which no one suggested to do!
Mat, when you wrote this it gave me the impression you didn't have a handle on how copyright worked. If you do then I'm sorry to have been patronising. Could have saved myself 30 mins typing, too! :lol:
I probably wasn't precise enough, despite my great efforts English is clearly not my first language. The "imposed" part should probably be formulated as "not discussed and agreed to share the talk beforehand", or similar. Anyway, this is not the topic for this for sure!
Mat
Post Reply