Looking after members interests.

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
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ragamala
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by ragamala »

MatDz wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 7:54 pm
But why would the imports be blocked if the PCs & etc. are no longer needed? If they are able to fulfill all the paperwork now, it can only be easier if we try to do something about it. The USA was able to help the hobbyists by introducing low volume allowances mentioned earlier, why the other "acronym country" couldn't?
Pattock provided the UN template for phytos. If we are suggesting that the BCSS should lobby the government to contravene this set of principles and guidelines I would like to see a good argument made for that, not least to save the Society for bringing itself into disrepute.

Regarding the US small seed import system, (you can import up to 50 packets of seed, 50 seeds max per packet) it seems to be not so simple = one site says

"The new procedure will therefore be as follows:

(a) The importer (in the US) will obtain a Small Lots of Seed Permit;
(b) The importer will send a copy of the Permit, plus a special label addressed to an Inspection Station in the US, plus a self-addressed label, to the exporter (outside the US), whether it is a company, a society or an individual;
(c) The exporter (outside the US) will send the seeds, packed and labelled as required, to the Inspection Station, using the label supplied, together with the copy of the Permit, a list of the seeds enclosed, and the label addressed to the importer (in the US);
(d) The seeds will be checked at the Inspection Station and forwarded to the intended recipient."

Can you see the UK government being persuaded to set up a new system like this, with all its bureaucratic entanglement?

http://theseedsite.co.uk/aphis.html
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MatDz
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by MatDz »

ragamala wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:20 pm Pattock provided the UN template for phytos. If we are suggesting that the BCSS should lobby the government to contravene this set of principles and guidelines I would like to see a good argument made for that, not least to save the Society for bringing itself into disrepute.
Assuming you are referring to this link http://www.fao.org/3/y3241e/y3241e06.htm, p. 1.1 states that:
Importing countries should only require phytosanitary certificates for regulated articles. These include commodities such as plants, bulbs and tubers, or seeds for propagation, fruits and vegetables, cut flowers and branches, grain, and growing medium. Phytosanitary certificates may also be used for certain plant products that have been processed where such products, by their nature or that of their processing, have a potential for introducing regulated pests (e.g. wood, cotton). A phytosanitary certificate may also be required for other regulated articles where phytosanitary measures are technically justified (e.g. empty containers, vehicles, and organisms).
it also uses the term "importing country" or variations 25 times, while "exporting" is only mentioned 8 times, which shows the direction. I really believe something can be done, and if no one does nothing, nothing will happen.
ragamala wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:20 pm Regarding the US small seed import system, (you can import up to 50 packets of seed, 50 seeds max per packet) it seems to be not so simple = one site says

"The new procedure will therefore be as follows:

(a) The importer (in the US) will obtain a Small Lots of Seed Permit;
(b) The importer will send a copy of the Permit, plus a special label addressed to an Inspection Station in the US, plus a self-addressed label, to the exporter (outside the US), whether it is a company, a society or an individual;
(c) The exporter (outside the US) will send the seeds, packed and labelled as required, to the Inspection Station, using the label supplied, together with the copy of the Permit, a list of the seeds enclosed, and the label addressed to the importer (in the US);
(d) The seeds will be checked at the Inspection Station and forwarded to the intended recipient."

Can you see the UK government being persuaded to set up a new system like this, with all its bureaucratic entanglement?

http://theseedsite.co.uk/aphis.html
One government was, why another could not be? We only need a few plant aficionados within the gov't! :mrgreen:

It also doesn't sound that terrible, all of the above can be designed to happen digitally.
Mat
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Pattock
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by Pattock »

The UN requirements are specifically to ensure that the phytosanitary certificates are a fair and needful imposition and produced properly and fairly. They do not require that there are PCs in place for all imports for all nations. They make it clear that it is up to the importing nation or bloc to set the standards but that there can be arbitration between exporter and importer if the exporter thinks the standards are too high and unnecessary and so constitute an unfair barrier to trade.

The EU do not give a fig:
No Community plant health legislation exists concerning export. ... ... Exporting companies are responsible for meeting the requirements of third countries, while Member State authorities are responsible for the reliability of the guarantees they provide to third country governments.
https://ec.europa.eu/food/sites/food/fi ... e_eval.pdf

Considering that PCs between the EU and UK have not been needed for decades it would be difficult to argue for extremely high standards to exclude all the pests we already have. We should be focussed on new and emerging pests and diseases. Most seeds of plants unrelated to agricultural crops will be a low threat.

What other etc. is there except VAT and CITES regulations?

VAT is a far broader problem for all importers from the EU, so we will make little impact compared to the large corporate interests who are lobbying for some helpful adjustments. I would be surprised if the Post Office is not also lobbying for a change. The VAT situation is recently becoming far more complicated within the EU. Rareplants.es/eu/de is based in the Canaries and has not sold to mainland Spain, the Balearics and their Moroccan enclaves for over 7 years because of the wacky VAT situation. Spanish (and now UK) customers are welcome to pick up from Tenerife in person or get the seeds sent to a hotel in Tenerife.

I have no idea how international trade, especially in cacti, is still pursued despite the almost total ban on trade in cactaceous plants by CITES, except for a few exceptions.
Last edited by Pattock on Mon Mar 15, 2021 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Pattock
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by Pattock »

MatDz wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:32 pm We only need a few plant aficionados within the gov't! :mrgreen:
Kim Darroch, Baron Darroch of Kew, ex-Ambassador to the USA, was recently photographed with a magnificent cactus and his daughter works at Kew. That is understatement. Georgina Darroch was project co-ordinator for the restoration of the Temperate House and is now World Heritage Site Coordinator.
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Stuart
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by Stuart »

Phytos from 'safe' EU countries like Belgium, Germany & Netherlands are an unnecessary barrier to trade. They have not been required for decades so there is no good reason to suddenly impose them. Even a bunch of daffodils now needs a phyto. How to convince DEFRA of this is the problem which is where this thread originally started.

Stuart
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ragamala
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by ragamala »

MatDz wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:32 pm I really believe something can be done, and if no one does nothing, nothing will happen.
I'm not sure what you are arguing in detail, Mat. Seeds for propagation ARE regulated. It is simple as that. If you want the UK to ignore international standards that's one approach. Encouraging the UK to change international standards is a different approach.

This is perhaps an area where the BCSS could invite member input on the approach it should take. I am also conscious of the fact that the issues extend well beyond our oqn hobby, which complicates matters. No way can we expect an exemption from international conventions by claiming cacti and succulents are a special case. This is a delicate matter, and one which can't be solved simply by issuing press releases or by petitions. I guess this is the central point I am making.

My best suggestion is that a little time is given for things to settle down. It's only a couple of months since we and the European suppliers found themselves in a new system. BTW With regard to need for phytos it is relevant that there was earlier and before 100% Brexit the plant passport system which occupied threads on this forum for quite a while.

MatDz wrote: Mon Mar 15, 2021 8:32 pm It also doesn't sound that terrible, all of the above can be designed to happen digitally.
I think the way I read the detail the foreign supplier is asked to despatch the goods to a pre-authorised "Inspection Station" who presumably inspect, then they forward the goods to the recipient. This is far from a digital operation. Whether there is a better way of the UK doing it I don't know, but I suggest looking at these issues is very far from the government's priorities.

Whether the current regulation is right or wrong, justified or not, that's the way it is and it will be an uphill struggle to change things, especially if we have no detailed proposed solution.
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by ragamala »

As an aside, the BCSS made it into the Guardian's Polly Toynbee comment this morning (linking to the weekend's Times article) -

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ence-trade

Maybe we should, though, stop complaining about the Brexit border effect and start thinking more how to re-establish the UK's cactus and succulent growing "industry", which has shown a sad decline in recent years or decades.
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MatDz
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by MatDz »

I am not arguing about anything in detail, and in general really, all my messages to date we're merely showing support to Ian's actions, which you seem to be arguing against.

If 2 and a half months ago I could buy plants from the EU without a PC, and I can still buy seeds for another 2 weeks without it as well, I really see no "international standards violation" anywhere here.
Mat
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ragamala
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by ragamala »

MatDz wrote: Tue Mar 16, 2021 2:01 pm I am not arguing about anything in detail
This is partly my concern. If all put forward is just complaint or disatisfaction, and no positive constructive detailed proposals are made, nothing will change.

The quote in the Times is
"A lot of garden centres are not stocking cacti at the moment because they can’t get them. If there’s a reduction in plant availability people may give up ... and go on to growing vegetables or something else.”

Frankly we need to say more than this to persuade decision-makers that we have a good case for change.

Back to what I said before - let's find a way of remobilising the UK's own nursery industry.
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ragamala
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Re: Looking after members interests.

Post by ragamala »

And how do we respond to this in Horticulture Week yesterday?

"Cacti supply issues ease
Garden centres say cacti and succulent supply issues have improved post-Brexit."

https://www.hortweek.com/cacti-supply-i ... le/1709951?
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