esp wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 10:11 pm
Every plant in cultivation descends from some form of harvest from habitat. If you wish to tar all collectors as a "dodgy habitat destroyers", that same amorality will surely apply to every plant you grow. I presume you will be therefore destroying your entire collection forthwith, in the interests of conservation. Or some other such nonsense.
Most of my plants were collected by people who are now dead. I am now doubtful about the two types of seed I got from Köhres as they sell some species that are prohibited. I will be killing and eating two of those plants in the next few weeks, if that makes you happy. None of my plants are covered by CITES and only a couple are endangered, as far as I recall. One of those almost certainly came from a cultivated plant in Bombay in the 1950s. The Aloe vera became extinct in the wild a few thousand years ago, as far as anyone knows. I am more interested in useful plants than rarities.
Where have I suggested that plants should be destroyed? My preference would be confiscation and cultivation in an approved nursery where their origin can be documented and the plants maintained by experts. Or use them to analyse the phytochemicals, as the plants are now so abundant.
KarlR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:53 pm
Why must all the material come from your so called dodgy habitat destroyers? Has it occurred to you that some of the material might have come from Mexican researchers and botanists who know people in Europe or the US and send them material to propagate and distribute? It would strictly speaking still be illegal since there wouldn't be a formal legal paper trail, but far removed from any habitat stripping.
As for your arguments about how we are supporting criminals, I just don't see any sense in it. I think your views are quite extreme and won't be shared by many.
If there is no paper trail, you have no argument. It would be impossible to tell one from the other. It might as well be a fantasy concocted by your supplier. Unless you are saying that you have personally been supplied with illegal exports from Mexico by bona fide researchers and botanists. Would you care to name them in this public forum and supply all the details of your crimes? Your confession would be most interesting.
Hopefully these antediluvian self-indulgences will be swept away in a flood of legal, approved cultivation by people who are prepared to take the responsibility for getting these things done properly, openly, legally and with decent oversight.
You seem to be obsessed by following Mexican law to the letter as it was implemented in CITES in 1997 through an amendment to Appendix 2 (I believe it was?). It doesn't seem to matter to you whether plant material or seeds were exported out of Mexico by poachers for profit or by e.g. researchers or ordinary people for profitless distribution. I know for a fact the latter has occurred more than once, but I am not going to disclose their names and information. They are technically breaking the law too.
Nor does it seem to matter to you whether extracting material from habitat and distributing and propagating in e.g. European collections and nurseries to try to satisfy demand is ultimately a benefit to conservation efforts. All you seem to care about is following the letter of the law even though that law is working against its intention as far as I am concerned.
I find it comical that you are actually calling this my crimes in a dramatic manner, and asking for my confession. You sound like a zealot and I find it hard to take you seriously on this.
Christian wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:42 pm
...you cannot really tell anyone growing this that their plant is offspring of some dodgy dealings from a decade ago.
At exactly what remove do you regard the amorality and illegality to cease? Because all of these plants are descended from those plants bought from dodgy habitat destroyers and each link in that chain has decided to support them in their criminal industry.
Every plant in cultivation descends from some form of harvest from habitat. If you wish to tar all collectors as a "dodgy habitat destroyers", that same amorality will surely apply to every plant you grow. I presume you will be therefore destroying your entire collection forthwith, in the interests of conservation. Or some other such nonsense.
Harsh fact .... but reality.
And each time we lust after that "must have" to complete our collection of xxxxxxxxxxx, we help fuel organised crime and we do have "blood on our hands".
Endeavouring to grow Aylostera, Echinocereus, Echinopsis, Gymnocalycium, Matucana, Rebutia, and Sulcorebutia. Fallen out of love with Lithops and aggravated by Aeoniums.
Currently being wooed by Haworthia, attempting hybridisation, and enticed by Mesembs.
KarlR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:55 pm
They are technically breaking the law too.
You think that technically breaking the law is the best kind of breaking the law?
KarlR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:55 pm
I find it comical that you are actually calling this my crimes in a dramatic manner, and asking for my confession. You sound like a zealot and I find it hard to take you seriously on this.
You have admitted to breaking the law (several confessions on this forum over the years). You are a criminal. It is not dramatic, just a statement of truth. You might not take your crimes seriously but other people do.
el48tel wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:38 am
Harsh fact .... but reality.
And each time we lust after that "must have" to complete our collection of xxxxxxxxxxx, we help fuel organised crime and we do have "blood on our hands".
In your collection, perhaps. As I noted above, the majority of my plants are not Endangered. Most were collected a long time ago by people now dead and the only criminal organisation they belonged to was the British Empire.
el48tel wrote: ↑Tue Aug 03, 2021 6:38 am
Harsh fact .... but reality.
And each time we lust after that "must have" to complete our collection of xxxxxxxxxxx, we help fuel organised crime and we do have "blood on our hands".
In your collection, perhaps. As I noted above, the majority of my plants are not Endangered. Most were collected a long time ago by people now dead and the only criminal organisation they belonged to was the British Empire.
Doesn't matter where or when or how or on which list or not, laid down by which authority. If they are in a collection, they are not growing "naturally", and at one time were "collected", unless they spontaneously appeared in the place in which you house them.
Endeavouring to grow Aylostera, Echinocereus, Echinopsis, Gymnocalycium, Matucana, Rebutia, and Sulcorebutia. Fallen out of love with Lithops and aggravated by Aeoniums.
Currently being wooed by Haworthia, attempting hybridisation, and enticed by Mesembs.
KarlR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:55 pm
They are technically breaking the law too.
You think that technically breaking the law is the best kind of breaking the law?
KarlR wrote: ↑Mon Aug 02, 2021 11:55 pm
I find it comical that you are actually calling this my crimes in a dramatic manner, and asking for my confession. You sound like a zealot and I find it hard to take you seriously on this.
You have admitted to breaking the law (several confessions on this forum over the years). You are a criminal. It is not dramatic, just a statement of truth. You might not take your crimes seriously but other people do.
Well, I don't know what to say to this. I think you are misguided and misinformed but you are clearly entrenched in your position and choose to see the world in black and white. I can't take you seriously and I don't really have anything else to say to you on this topic.