Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
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Aiko
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Aiko »

Pattock wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 2:22 pm Perhaps we should embargo scientific publication of any desirable new species until the nurseries have sufficient stock to meet demand?
I doubt this will work. Would you as a nursery man be willing to reserve a large space of your greenhouse for plants that you can only sell in the next five to ten years? And them hope the species you dedicate so much time and space on actually will (still) be popular after a few years. in the mean time hoping the species has not spread via the many seed lists that are out there already so you can actually benefit...?

(And why should only commercial nurseries be benefiting from this. It is not like they have high priorities of getting the prices down of plants, or are expected to have an altruistic view on plant distribution)

I see much more sense in for Mexican authorities to distribute seeds (collected from colonies that can easily miss a large quantity of seeds) to the many succulent societies (like the BCSS, Succulenta or the many Czech societies), that should distribute these to their most prominent members whom are willing to dedicate their time and knowledge to propagate these species further. With grafting you can get up to speed for seed distribution to everyone interesting in a certain species quite quickly in societies seed lists. In a few years the pressure should be off for most wanted species as everyone had a chance of obtaining them, theoretically.

Sounds like a better solution that keeping the pressure on species for decades by banning them fully and just making things harder, allowing unscrupulous types to make easy money in the mean time. That will be a never ending story...

I am totally in favour of being openly and transparent, making things easy instead of hard and try to facilitate as much as you can in a controlled and orderly way. This will benefit the colonies of plants, the societies and their members.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Tina »

I agree with AIko, stuart & Karl, the czeck & other growers are amazing at propagating & increasing stocks via grafting from just a few seed & they don't even need the 500 minimum that Kew stipulate.

Years ago wasn't their some cultivation of grafted Yavia supported by the society ( I don't know the details).

I would much rather have a seed grown grafted plant than an Ex habitat one, newly discovered plants are normally available at ELk within a few years & are grafted clearly not habitat plants so having these available saves the population
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Ross M »

Tina wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 4:48 pm Years ago wasn't their some cultivation of grafted Yavia supported by the society ( I don't know the details).
Yes and I still have one going strong Tina (long since de-grafted and in a 2.75" pot). Photo taken spring 2020.I really wish the society would be able to repeat successful exercises like this.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Christian »

Intriguing… do you have more information on this project, Ross?

On a general note, I‘ve grown Turbinicarpus graminispinus from seed bought off one of the main European cactus seed merchants, and I honestly don‘t feel complicit in any form of habitat stripping. You will want to control how plants enter cultivation, and it would be good to learn more about the workings of the trade, but there comes a point when such species become so ubiquitous that you cannot really tell anyone growing this that their plant is offspring of some dodgy dealings from a decade ago.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Ross M »

It was an advert in the BCSS journal maybe 15 or 20 years ago Christian. I'm sure there was an associated article in the journal at the time so must look it out. There were several clones available and I think members were restricted to an order of two plants each.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Pattock »

Christian wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:42 pm ...you cannot really tell anyone growing this that their plant is offspring of some dodgy dealings from a decade ago.
At exactly what remove do you regard the amorality and illegality to cease? Because all of these plants are descended from those plants bought from dodgy habitat destroyers and each link in that chain has decided to support them in their criminal industry.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by KarlR »

Pattock wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:22 pm
Christian wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:42 pm ...you cannot really tell anyone growing this that their plant is offspring of some dodgy dealings from a decade ago.
At exactly what remove do you regard the amorality and illegality to cease? Because all of these plants are descended from those plants bought from dodgy habitat destroyers and each link in that chain has decided to support them in their criminal industry.
Why must all the material come from your so called dodgy habitat destroyers? Has it occurred to you that some of the material might have come from Mexican researchers and botanists who know people in Europe or the US and send them material to propagate and distribute? It would strictly speaking still be illegal since there wouldn't be a formal legal paper trail, but far removed from any habitat stripping.

As for your arguments about how we are supporting criminals, I just don't see any sense in it. I think your views are quite extreme and won't be shared by many.
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Pattock
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Pattock »

KarlR wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:53 pm Why must all the material come from your so called dodgy habitat destroyers? Has it occurred to you that some of the material might have come from Mexican researchers and botanists who know people in Europe or the US and send them material to propagate and distribute? It would strictly speaking still be illegal since there wouldn't be a formal legal paper trail, but far removed from any habitat stripping.

As for your arguments about how we are supporting criminals, I just don't see any sense in it. I think your views are quite extreme and won't be shared by many.
If there is no paper trail, you have no argument. It would be impossible to tell one from the other. It might as well be a fantasy concocted by your supplier. Unless you are saying that you have personally been supplied with illegal exports from Mexico by bona fide researchers and botanists. Would you care to name them in this public forum and supply all the details of your crimes? Your confession would be most interesting.

Hopefully these antediluvian self-indulgences will be swept away in a flood of legal, approved cultivation by people who are prepared to take the responsibility for getting these things done properly, openly, legally and with decent oversight.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by esp »

Pattock wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 7:22 pm
Christian wrote: Mon Aug 02, 2021 6:42 pm ...you cannot really tell anyone growing this that their plant is offspring of some dodgy dealings from a decade ago.
At exactly what remove do you regard the amorality and illegality to cease? Because all of these plants are descended from those plants bought from dodgy habitat destroyers and each link in that chain has decided to support them in their criminal industry.
Every plant in cultivation descends from some form of harvest from habitat. If you wish to tar all collectors as a "dodgy habitat destroyers", that same amorality will surely apply to every plant you grow. I presume you will be therefore destroying your entire collection forthwith, in the interests of conservation. Or some other such nonsense.
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Re: Illegal Cacti and the BCSS

Post by Stuart »

It's a bit of an exaggeration to suggest ELK was 'raided'. A couple of Belgian CITES officials had a look around and gave an 'on the spot fine' to a nurseryman selling a grafted Aztekium, one of the best nurseries at ELK. They ignored others selling large habitat clumps of Anacampseros Alstonii and Pachypodium Brevicaule because all they were looking for were specific Mexican plant names. They also walked past the nursery who didn't have any labels on his Aztekiums.
I wouldn't call it a raid, more like a couple of strolling traffic wardens

Stuart
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