Getting colademononis to accept pollen

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edds
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Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by edds » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 pm

I wonder if I can tap into your collective knowledge please?

I am trying to make some hybrids of colademononis. I've managed to get a Chamaelobivia hybrid to accept colademononis pollen but I can't seem to get the colademononis to accept pollen of Chamaelobivia or Echinopsis.

I'm using cotton buds to pollinate and trying to pollinate on a number of days to make sure I get pollen on there when receptive but I'm obviously not doing something right!

Any ideas?
Ed

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Phil_SK
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by Phil_SK » Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:58 pm

edds wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 9:29 pm
I'm obviously not doing something right!
I doubt that you're the problem, rather, for some reason this plant doesn't cross easily even with fairly near relatives.
Phil Crewe, BCSS 38143. Mostly S. American cacti, esp. Lobivia, Sulcorebutia and little Opuntia
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by Pattock » Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:18 pm

Do you have a strong source of gamma rays? You can increase receptivity to difficult pollen by mixing it with pollen that is acceptable but which has been killed in certain ways.

The freezing and thawing methods I saw originally were probably even more difficult than the gamma irradiation method, as they needed very low temperatures, around -190°C. However this paper suggests that the mentor pollen can be prepared as easily as "successively frozen for 5 min at -4°C and thawed for 30 min for a period of 105 min." No more details there.
https://www.scielo.br/j/bjg/a/BbfYT38Y6 ... format=pdf

There is a methanol method as well, but I haven't bumped into a paper for that, yet.

You could try just adding a tiny amount of the acceptable pollen to a lot of the difficult pollen and then seeing what the next generation look like. You may get some seeds of the trickier one. This has been done with blueberries where the colour of the fruit would indicate the pollen parent. They used repeated pollinations over several days to improve seed set. https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/downl ... p1072b.pdf

This "mentor pollen" method can overcome the barriers to both selfing and distant crosses. The compounds released by the acceptable pollen to induce receptivity in the stigma do not depend on the pollen being alive.
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fero
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by fero » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:25 am

Good info there, Pat (tu) (tu) :smile:
edds
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by edds » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:50 am

Thanks guys.
No source of gamma rays (that I'm aware of!)

I also only have one colademononis plant so, unless it is self-fertile (which I don't think it is as I didn't get any seed set last year) I don't know that I could use that to trick the plant. In fact I wonder if getting colademononis pollen on the stigma when trying to pollinate might be causing some issues? It seems to produce tons of pollen and the stigma seems very late to open and become receptive. I have another flower open today so I might try cutting off the anthers if the stigma isn't protruding beyond them.

I have got a Hildewintera hybrid coming into bud so perhaps that might take or be close enough to trigger a reaction and then get some Echinopsis or Chamaelobivia pollen accepted too? Thanks for the tip!

I did wonder if pollen tube length might be causing an issue. I am sure if I remember my facts correctly that some plants have compatibility issues with pollen grains not able to grow long enough pollen tubes and wondered if this might be a factor in some crosses as the hybrid Chamaelobivia took the colademononis pollen but not the other way around?

These difficulties might suggest another reason why the Hildewintera hybrids all look like aureaspina rather than colademononis - it's much easier to cross!

At least I have the cross the other way round and hopefully those babies might backcross onto the colademononis parent more easily!
Ed

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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by BrianMc » Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:52 am

I have had no trouble producing seed on C.colademononis when pollinating with Cleistocactus strausii, xCleistoreocereus or Borzicactus icosagonus. However, attempts pollinating with Echinopsis have so far failed. Cleistocactus are much more closely related to Borzicactus, Oreocereus etc and therefore lack the barriers that exist between Cleistocactus and Echinopsis.

Just my opinion (and happy to be proved wrong) but I think successful crossings of species Cleistocactus with species Echinopsis are rare and I assume that many of the Cleisto(Hildewintera)/Echinopsis hybrids around today can trace their initial intergeneric hybridisation back to a relatively small number of incidents. Since the reproductive barriers between genera has been bridged it has widened the the possible scope that these lineages are able to interact with, but it doesn't necessarily create a 'free for all'
Pattock wrote:
Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:18 pm


....The freezing and thawing methods I saw originally were probably even more difficult than the gamma irradiation method, as they needed very low temperatures, around -190°C. However this paper suggests that the mentor pollen can be prepared as easily as "successively frozen for 5 min at -4°C and thawed for 30 min for a period of 105 min." No more details there.....

.....This "mentor pollen" method can overcome the barriers to both selfing and distant crosses. The compounds released by the acceptable pollen to induce receptivity in the stigma do not depend on the pollen being alive.
Pattock, was interested to read your post as it reminded me of one of my observations when experimenting with pollen storage. When first experimenting, a few years ago I tried both refrigeration (4C) and freezing with a batch of Trichocereus macrogonus(pachanoi) pollen. When my Echinopsis(Schick) 'Sleeping Beauty' came in to flower with 6 blooms I pollinated 3 flowers with refrigerated pollen and three flowers with frozen pollen. After a few days all flowers showed signs successful fertilisation. one week later and the fruits of the refrigerated pollen were decidedly fatter than those of the frozen pollen fruits. Another week later and the frozen pollen fruits had stopped growing, but were still firmly attached to the plant. A few weeks later the frozen pollen fruits detached. These were split open and yielded no seed or even unripened aborted seed. The refrigerator pollen fruits eventually ripened yielding a good crop of seed.
After reading your post and jumping to conclusions( :roll: ). The frozen pollen(viability) had been destroyed in the freezing process but still maintained the ability to trick the stigmas of the recipient. So perhaps not so difficult to achieve and better than messing with gamma rays - we don't want a Hulk in the greenhouse :mrgreen:
Especially interested in Mesembs. small Aloes and South African miniatures and bulbs.
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by Pattock » Wed Jun 23, 2021 9:40 am

Seems like a reasonable conclusion.

Not that I am likely to need this if I ever try hybridising. Most of the stapeliads seem as amenable to hybridising as Amanda Grayson.
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by edds » Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm

Thanks Brian and interesting stuff. I have managed to get a Hildewintera 'Helm's Neue' and Chamaelobivia to accept the colademononis pollen so hopefully these may either be amenable to a back cross or I can self the progeny to get the intended results. If I can get some pollen before the final colademononis flower has finished, I shall also try putting hybrid Hildewintera onto the colademononis and see if that is more successful.

Colademononis pollen onto a hybrid Echinopsis though did not work which I find interesting when it took so well on a Chamaelobivia (supposedly now and Echinopsis!)
Ed

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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by Phil_SK » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:19 pm

The term 'mentor pollen' is new to me but the idea isn't, though it's usually recommended to enable selfing: I want to self a Mammillaria so I apply its pollen together with some Eriosyce pollen, hoping the latter will overcome the self-incompatability mechanisms and allow the Mammilaria pollen to 'sneak through'. A dusting with cement has been offered as an alternative way of achieving this.
edds wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:50 am
I did wonder if pollen tube length might be causing an issue. I am sure if I remember my facts correctly that some plants have compatibility issues with pollen grains not able to grow long enough pollen tubes
That must be a possibility but there are plenty of big-small crosses, suggesting that cacti are fairly forgiving in this respect.
BrianMc wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:52 am
I have had no trouble producing seed on C.colademononis when pollinating with Cleistocactus strausii, xCleistoreocereus or Borzicactus icosagonus. However, attempts pollinating with Echinopsis have so far failed. Cleistocactus are much more closely related to Borzicactus, Oreocereus etc and therefore lack the barriers that exist between Cleistocactus and Echinopsis.
The problem with that is that the best evidence we have to date indicates that Cleistocactus is more closely related to Echinopsis than to Borzicactus, Oreocereus.
BrianMc wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:52 am
Just my opinion (and happy to be proved wrong) but I think successful crossings of species Cleistocactus with species Echinopsis are rare and I assume that many of the Cleisto(Hildewintera)/Echinopsis hybrids around today can trace their initial intergeneric hybridisation back to a relatively small number of incidents. Since the reproductive barriers between genera has been bridged it has widened the the possible scope that these lineages are able to interact with, but it doesn't necessarily create a 'free for all'
That 'feels' right to me too!
edds wrote:
Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:32 pm
Thanks Brian and interesting stuff. I have managed to get a Hildewintera 'Helm's Neue' and Chamaelobivia to accept the colademononis pollen
As described above, there's a possibility that you've selfed these using foreign (colademono) pollen, though as you've set two fruit it's probably not what's happened.
Phil Crewe, BCSS 38143. Mostly S. American cacti, esp. Lobivia, Sulcorebutia and little Opuntia
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Re: Getting colademononis to accept pollen

Post by edds » Wed Jun 23, 2021 7:52 pm

Thanks Phil.

I don't disagree with any of that. Pretty sure these are not selfed (but you never can be sure!) - I kept the anthers well out of the way of the stigma and have one fruit on the Helm's Neue and two on the Chamaelobivia and they're all looking very nice and plump so hopefully very full of seeds.

As it's first time crosses for both for me though you never know until the seedlings have got to a decent size and probably flowered! The anticipation for those years will be 'fun'!
Ed

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