Calling Latin scholars

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Paul D
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Calling Latin scholars

Post by Paul D »

I've moved onto the letter "n" in my gradual revamp of my website and I'm investigating the plant variously known as Rebutia espinosae, Rebutia narvaecensis, Aylostera narvaecense, narvaecensis, etc.

Given that the name is supposed to denote that it comes from the region of Narvaez, and accepting that it is an Aylostera not a Rebutia, and regardless of what has been published, what is the grammatically correct specific name? narvaezense? narvaezensis? narvaecense? narvaecensis?

I guess this depends on whether Narvaez is regarded as feminine or neutral, and whether or not a "z" is allowable?
Paul in North-east Scotland (Grampian Branch BCSS)
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Davey246 »

If the name is meant to translate as the equivalent of English raddish, just as a simple example, the origin - the specific name, has no gender itself as it is an adjective associated with a place. What it will depend on is the gender of the genus.

Unfortunatley Google Translate is of little help - supposedly Aylostera means sturdy flute (presumably in Latin), but translating that back to Latin gives fortis tibia.

My Latin is rubbish!!!
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Paul D »

Davey246 wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 7:19 am If the name is meant to translate as the equivalent of English raddish, just as a simple example, the origin - the specific name, has no gender itself as it is an adjective associated with a place. What it will depend on is the gender of the genus.

Unfortunatley Google Translate is of little help - supposedly Aylostera means sturdy flute (presumably in Latin), but translating that back to Latin gives fortis tibia.

My Latin is rubbish!!!
I believe "Aylostera" is Greek, from "aulos stereos" (or aylos stereos, solid or firm tube). The convention is for the genus to be feminine but narvaecense would indicate neutral (but then is it Aylostera which is neutral, or Narvaez?)
Paul in North-east Scotland (Grampian Branch BCSS)
National Collection Rebutia, Aylostera & Weingartia (inc. Sulcorebutia). Also growing a mixture including Ferocactus, Gymnocalycium, Lobivia, Mammillaria, Lithops, Gasteria, Haworthia.
http://www.rebutia.org.uk
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Tony R »

Hi Paul,

In Stern p94, Group B-1 adjectives ending in -is (m. and f.) -e (n.)
p213 preference for geographical names to end in -ensis (-e n.)

Aylostera would be treated as a latinised 1st declension noun (f.)

So ought to be Aylostera narvaecensis, not -e as so named by Cárdenas.

As to z vs. c, I don't believe z is not allowed. Indeed, in Kaktusy 61 it is named thus:
Kaktusy 61.jpg
Kaktusy 61.jpg (61.01 KiB) Viewed 465 times
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Paul D »

Tony R wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 1:33 pm Hi Paul,

In Stern p94, Group B-1 adjectives ending in -is (m. and f.) -e (n.)
p213 preference for geographical names to end in -ensis (-e n.)

Aylostera would be treated as a latinised 1st declension noun (f.)

So ought to be Aylostera narvaecensis, not -e as so named by Cárdenas.

As to z vs. c, I don't believe z is not allowed. Indeed, in Kaktusy 61 it is named thus:

Kaktusy 61.jpg
Thanks Tony. That's what I thought with the gender. So they messed up twice with this one! Not to mention the typo in the final publication (Aylostera "narvacense").
So to be strictly correct the plant ought to have been named Aylostera narvaezensis.
I'm not familiar with the rules about naming, and how mistakes or errors are dealt with- in this case, which one would be the official accepted version?
Paul in North-east Scotland (Grampian Branch BCSS)
National Collection Rebutia, Aylostera & Weingartia (inc. Sulcorebutia). Also growing a mixture including Ferocactus, Gymnocalycium, Lobivia, Mammillaria, Lithops, Gasteria, Haworthia.
http://www.rebutia.org.uk
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by RAYWOODBRIDGE »

Hi Paul.
After looking in my copy of " RHS Latin for Gardeners " (yes there is such a book :grin: you would be amazed what I get for Christmas presents ).
Tony is correct as for as I can make out.
Z is OK but not on this occasion.
Ray

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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Phil_SK »

I'm reasonably confident this should be 'narvaecensis'. The ending is probably more of an orthographical error than a typo - it appears more than once in Cárdenas's article.
The c/z should probably stay as 'c'
60.1. The original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained, except for the correction of typographical or orthographical errors and the standardizations imposed by Art. 60.4 (letters and ligatures foreign to classical Latin), 60.5 and 60.6 (interchange between u/v, i/j, or eu/ev), 60.7 (diacritical signs and ligatures), 60.8 (terminations; see also Art. 32.2), 60.9 (intentional latinizations), 60.10 (compounding forms), 60.11 and 60.12 (hyphens), 60.13 (apostrophes and full stops), 60.14 (abbreviations), and F.9.1 (epithets of fungal names) (see also Art. 14.8, 14.11, and F.3.2). link
The c/z again isn't a typo as it appears consistently in the article (and Cárdenas also published a Trichocereus narvaecensis). It was probably meant as an "intentional latinisation" and would meet the conditions for preservation in 60.9 without much trouble, I think.
Phil Crewe, BCSS 38143. Mostly S. American cacti, esp. Lobivia, Sulcorebutia and little Opuntia
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Paul D »

Phil_SK wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:51 pm I'm reasonably confident this should be 'narvaecensis'. The ending is probably more of an orthographical error than a typo - it appears more than once in Cárdenas's article.
The c/z should probably stay as 'c'
60.1. The original spelling of a name or epithet is to be retained, except for the correction of typographical or orthographical errors and the standardizations imposed by Art. 60.4 (letters and ligatures foreign to classical Latin), 60.5 and 60.6 (interchange between u/v, i/j, or eu/ev), 60.7 (diacritical signs and ligatures), 60.8 (terminations; see also Art. 32.2), 60.9 (intentional latinizations), 60.10 (compounding forms), 60.11 and 60.12 (hyphens), 60.13 (apostrophes and full stops), 60.14 (abbreviations), and F.9.1 (epithets of fungal names) (see also Art. 14.8, 14.11, and F.3.2). link
The c/z again isn't a typo as it appears consistently in the article (and Cárdenas also published a Trichocereus narvaecensis). It was probably meant as an "intentional latinisation" and would meet the conditions for preservation in 60.9 without much trouble, I think.
Thanks Phil (tu)
The typo I was referring to was in Mosti & Papini's 2011 combination where they missed out the first "e".
So, if I go with Aylostera narvaecensis, what would be the correct authority for this? Would it just be Aylostera narvaecensis Card.?
Paul in North-east Scotland (Grampian Branch BCSS)
National Collection Rebutia, Aylostera & Weingartia (inc. Sulcorebutia). Also growing a mixture including Ferocactus, Gymnocalycium, Lobivia, Mammillaria, Lithops, Gasteria, Haworthia.
http://www.rebutia.org.uk
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by Phil_SK »

Yes, seems OK to me.
Phil Crewe, BCSS 38143. Mostly S. American cacti, esp. Lobivia, Sulcorebutia and little Opuntia
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Re: Calling Latin scholars

Post by ralphrmartin »

The book Tony is alluding to is
W T Stearn, Botanical Latin,
which gives all sorts of useful information about how Latin works in plant names
(as opposed to the rules which say what is and isn't a valid name, etc).
Ralph Martin
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