Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

For the discussion of topics related to the conservation, cultivation, propagation and exhibition of cacti & other succulents.
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mdpillet
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Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by mdpillet »

Presumed to be extinct in the wild, I am on a mission to find someone who grows this species. Does anyone here grow it, or know anyone who might?
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kohinoor
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by kohinoor »

taxonomy data about this species is so little.
even if u find one,there is no way you can ID it.

and it is believe merge with Discocactus heptacanthus due to the lack of taxonomy data.
no one can tell the different between them.

although i personal think merging a endanger/extinct specie to other similar specie will make a bad precedent.
we don;t need preservation any more ! just burn the taxonomy data and merge them in to one species.
From taiwan. hot humid subtropical island.
Pachypodium grow like weed here.
(not really, but u get the idea hot sunny rainy)
discolover
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by discolover »

Dear mdpillet,
I still grow Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans!!
So mayby I can help you on your 'mission'.
I have full grown plants in my collection I raised from seeds distributed by the Belgian nursery 'the Deherdt brothers'. They had the seeds received from E. Esteves.
I can pollinate them 'on request' to raise seeds.
This year I don have time. I"m building a new greenhouse this moment.
PM me and remind me again next year so I dont 'forget' do do this.

Peter.
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Aiko
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by Aiko »

discolover wrote: I can pollinate them 'on request' to raise seeds.
This year I don have time. I"m building a new greenhouse this moment.
Has the flowers wilted away and the opportunity to pollinate passed by?

If not, then I don't quite understand why something easy in time (not always as easy in success, though) as pollinating a plant could be done, but prefering to skip a (possible) opportunity and then wait one full year, while you could help out someone and support an apparently endangered species of maybe becoming extinct?
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DaveW
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by DaveW »

A quote from the Red List:-

"Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans was last seen in 1984 and has not been found since then, despite extensive surveys of the original location and surrounding areas. A few specimens survive in private collections but the species is not kept in any botanic garden. Further surveys are needed to establish whether this species is still extant in the wild.

See:-

http://www.discocactus.nl/Engels/specie ... eransE.htm

The problem with many so called extinct species that regenerate from seed is nobody can be sure they are extinct in habitat. Sometimes human life spans are not long enough to see regeneration, even of the small globular cacti.

Not a cactus, but there was a "lost" species of plant re-found in Chile in 2015 due to the exceptional rains which had not been seen since Philippi described it. Evidently the climatic conditions for it's reappearance had not been suitable before. It may be normal in some species of the Cactaceae to exist at times only as viable seed in the ground, as not only annuals do this, in order to regenerate when ideal conditions for germination return.

A sensible listing in Red Books would be "not observed in habitat since 1984" since to say any plant that regenerates from seed is extinct without having absolute proof is not scientific and in remote country areas few botanists ever cover more than a fraction of any possible habitats.

Luckily the plant does not seem to be extinct in collections, even if evidently it is in Botanical Gardens. Therefore that is one advantage of having private cactus collections over relying on state organisations for conservation.
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
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Alexander
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by Alexander »

DaveW wrote:A sensible listing in Red Books would be "not observed in habitat since 1984" since to say any plant that regenerates from seed is extinct without having absolute proof is not scientific and in remote country areas few botanists ever cover more than a fraction of any possible habitats.
"Extinct in the wild" basically means what you are saying, i.e. "not observed/found for some time despite looking for it really hard". Nothing unscientific here.
Terry S.

Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by Terry S. »

An important point from this is that botanic gardens are not actually very skilled in maintaining difficult plants compared to many private enthusiasts. This is perhaps not too surprising in view of the high levels of staff turnover in many of them. However, botanic gardens are in the privileged position of sometimes being able to obtain rare plants that are not legally available to the amateur; a problem made greater by the increasing amounts of legislation. One feels that there should be some way of recognising important private collections. There is of course the problem of what happens to such private collections once their owner has passed over to that great desert in the sky?
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by Tina »

Hi
I'd be interested in some more Discocactus, are all Discocactus noctural floweres.
I only used to find the spent flowers on my Discocactus horstii after the event I think only once I managed to capture some pictures.
Tina

varied collection of succulents and cacti but I especially like Euphorbia's, Ariocarpus and variegated agaves.

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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by jfabiao »

DaveW wrote:The problem with many so called extinct species that regenerate from seed is nobody can be sure they are extinct in habitat. Sometimes human life spans are not long enough to see regeneration, even of the small globular cacti.
DaveW wrote:A sensible listing in Red Books would be "not observed in habitat since 1984" since to say any plant that regenerates from seed is extinct without having absolute proof is not scientific and in remote country areas few botanists ever cover more than a fraction of any possible habitats.
The IUCN Conservation Status categories are clearly defined here:
http://s3.amazonaws.com/iucnredlist-new ... rit_en.pdf

The fact that the name of a given categorie uses words that have other, wider coloquial uses should not detract from the fact that they have (more or less) precise meanings in certain contexts.

Moreover, demanding absolute proof from science is missing the whole point of "science" as a process, particularly life sciences. And that is not even considering that what you're talking about is proof of absence, not of existence.
Z

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DaveW
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Re: Discocactus subterraneo-proliferans

Post by DaveW »

Extinct means dead and gone forever, otherwise you are bastardising the term. Unless you can scientifically prove something is extinct, which is often easier with animals than plants which can exist as seed, the word should not be used.

In advertising the Advertising Standards Authority will not allow manufacturers of disinfectants to say "kills all known germs" since that is scientifically unprovable, which is why then have to say "kills 99.9% of all known germs". Why should conservation authorities, supposedly scientists, be allowed to use such slipshod language for conservation purposes when they would not legally be allowed to use it in an advert since they cannot prove what they say?

There was a report where a botanist went to a hillside, the known locality of an Ariocarpus species and after hours of climbing around declared it extinct there. A year or two later another botanist happened to be there in flowering season and observed the whole hillside was covered with hundreds of them in flower. Were they simply underground when the first botanist went, or had they regenerated from seed in the meantime - in either case they were not extinct and certainly not extinct in habitat and should have never been declared so.

The problem is such misleading statements, whilst not allowed by scientists in advertising, get plants listed as endangered when they are actually not, then to save face the botanical "profession", if you can call people not acting scientifically that, will not then correct their mistake and remove the listing.

I was told a species of Other Succulent was listed as virtually extinct, but an amateur found them in their hundreds and took photographs of them which were sent to the listing authorities, who then stated to save face they were still not going to alter the listing in spite of the evidence to the contrary.

I am afraid the Red Books need challenging more often when new evidence comes to light and de-listing should be automatic in that case and not up to the whim of the few individuals maintaining the records. If not the public can have no confidence in the listings, or the competence of the so called scientists maintaining them.

Perhaps we need the listing authorities and CITES regulators being brought directly under control of Parliament so the general public and traders can petition their MP's to get listings altered. Since this matter does affect British international trade as to what species can be traded and the amount of certification required? We have far to many Quango's in Britain deciding matters that should be up to a democratic vote by MP's in Parliament capable of being lobbied on the subject by their constituents.

As to how long seed can remain viable and the plant cannot be called extinct, see:-

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... s-science/

Also:-

http://www.illawarramercury.com.au/stor ... d/?cs=2452

http://animalmozo.com/2015/10/24/23-ext ... ive-today/

"Moreover, demanding absolute proof from science is missing the whole point of "science" as a process, particularly life sciences. And that is not even considering that what you're talking about is proof of absence, not of existence."

They are not even providing proof of absence if the plant is subsequently refund there, simply that the individual concerned did not see it and that could be as much up to their incompetence, where another more skilled observer could have found them. I would guess more plants of the Cactaceae have been discovered by amateurs than the so called "professional botanists".
Nottingham Branch BCSS. Joined the then NCSS in 1961, Membership number 11944. Cactus only collection.
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